What is IH doing to increase diversity?
Lotta dudes up in here. @csallen @channingallen are there any plans or goals to better include and attract non-dude people to the IH community?
It'd be swell to see some demographics published - I know Stripe is committed to diversity, so I presume IH is aiming for the same.
I think many attempts to actively increase diversity just end up making the problem worse or creating a new problem all together.
There is so much focus now on female founders and all the efforts just make me feel like I am part of the special olympics.
Honestly, the most important thing is to just not treat "minorities" any differently. Don't even SEE them as different. I am a founder. Period. Only call me a female founder when you area talking about the issue itself and want to make a distinction between being male and female as a founder.
I think this is the very important point - as long as you lift the barriers, then you truly work for diversity.
As soon as you start looking at things through percentages and quotas, then you are literally forcing the majority to treat minorities like beings that cannot take care of themselves and support "handholding" culture which has opposite effects to what we trying to achieve that. We already see this in big companies where HR departments are forced to hire based on race and gender, rather than skill, which in my opinion is really racist and chauvinist.
I think by rising this subject we are also rising issues - we should work on lifting barriers (which IH is doing amazingly well), not on attracting certain groups or babysitting them.
I would recommend introducing just one difference - a green or purple choosable avatar - possibly animal or some creature, or even completely removing default avatars and move to fictional ones like on some websites - for people that prefer/are not forced to not disclose their gender/race.
Let's embrace everyone skills and treats rather than forcing them to fit in some picture.
Christina, you don’t know how happy I am to hear such a statement. Finally someone who sees this whole ‚diversity situation‘ in the startup world from a sane point of view. Awesome
As I said in a different thread, I’m not saying we should focus on minorities or special days/events, but just having the makeup of the community be a more diverse mix - with diverse backgrounds come diverse ideas and better solutions.
So I’m thinking about how we can increase the diversity of the overall IH community, not because it’s bad as it is but because many threads seem to consist solely of one demographic.
I'm afraid that this proportion of dudes vs dudettes will remain constant as the overall community grows.
I have 10+ years interacting with startups as a female entrepreneur, and in the past year I started a series of interviews with entrepreneurs from all around the world who talk about the books that shaped their business. I've tried to keep the proportions balanced for the interviews and realized it's impossible - after taking 100+ interviews (and reaching out to at least 3x that), I reached the conclusion that there just aren't that many women founders overall. And those few aren't as willing to publicly expose themselves (I'm probably the best example to illustrate this, I've been lurking around since last summer and only last week started to be active).
Interesting. Why wouldn’t ladies want to reveal themselves?
I can understand why a user on IH/any other forum might not want to reveal that they are female (for many reasons).
What I don't quite understand is why a female/minority founder wouldn't just take advantage of the fact that IH allows one to hide behind a username (where gender/background are hidden).
@Pyuric - do you have a theory/gut instinct why female founders just aren't as willing to participate actively in the forum, regardless of anonymity?
I'd be really interested to know whether you think it's due to the way the (predominantly male) IHers act on the forum being off-putting to female founders somehow, or whether it's more to do with the female founders themselves...
Hiding ones gender on a large part of the internet is a constant reminder of why that is necessary. So, no fun.
Engaging with a community on the internet is a risk/reward thing that frequently is not worth it.
Sure, the negative outcome is more likely on gaming forums, specifically for a shooter or mmo, but it happens on professional network/social sites as well.
I believe you.
Something I don't understand though is why this is more of a problem online than in real life. Is participating (perhaps anonymously) on the IH forum more of a risk than eg attending a networking event/job fair/social event like a club or bar?
If so, is that just the perception of the risk/reward ratio which is more negative online, or do you think men behave worse online than IRL?
Obviously most of this is going to be based on who I am and where I live. Others will have different experiences and ideas.
IRL:
I do think that parts of the internet is getting better.
For the risk/reward part, it’s easy to get value out of an online community just from observing. This is impossible IRL.
Makes sense. Thanks.
Because it invites stalkers and assholes.
Maybe not immediately, maybe not even on the same site. But if your gender can be tracked and it happens to be female then you will be harassed eventually.
Then there are the guys like Thomasm1964... Who wants to dismiss our dislike for being harassed or stalked as simply a biological difference. They are generally just as unpleasant to encounter.
I totally agree with your first paragraph, but couldn't find any of Thomasm1964's comment where he said what you're attributing to him. I would report it if I did see such a flippant and hurtful comment. But AFAICT, he just said male/female differences in interests are influenced by both biology and culture. That's true and well-studied, not only for humans but also for several other primates.
Saying he's "just as unpleasant to encounter (as a stalker)" of makes further discussion impossible, and personally smears him in a particularly damaging way.
(If he did say what you claim, then I'd certainly report the comment)
@alchemist,
Because it was said as a reply to this question
“Interesting. Why wouldn’t ladies want to reveal themselves?”
The implication is clear.
Ah interesting. I had read the question you just quoted here as ignoring the possibility that there actually was a lower number of women on the forum and his response as addressing that half of the equation.
I suspect both factors are at play. The subject matter probably appeals to more men (for whatever reason) and a higher percentage of women prefer to lurk and use somewhat more anonymous screen names due to the stalking / harassment issues you pointed out.
I'm pretty firmly in the not using a picture and real name in the profile camp myself, as you can see... largely due to one over the top online crazy I'm trying to forget about. It's IH doesn't push a real name policy, and I agree with the concerns you pointed out in other threads.
Thank you very much for that answer. I had a feeling it was something along those lines.
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Yes, that’s true. We’re different but that doesn’t have much to do with what we’re discussing here.
Women are quite verbal on other forums so I can’t accept that reasoning at face value.
It has to have something to do with the culture or a bias that we, as men, don’t experience.
IH is much more accepting than places like Reddit.
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But is the lack of interest from women just biological/psychological like you seem to suggest? I'm not so sure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_STEM_fields#Explanations_for_low_representation_of_women
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Definitely social oriented. Weight loss is a biggie.
I see what you mean now. Their interests, whether we like it or not, lie in a different area.
But it’s not just biological. It’s what they’ve been trained by society to like.
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Haha, I feel your pain. My partner looks at me like I’m crazy whenever i start talking about why certain cars that’s look the same on the outside are completely different.
My eyes glaze over when she starts talking about the perfect texture for our furniture.
Alas, it isn’t what it is.
The problem with your example is that Pink was traditionally a young male colour and has only become seen as female in the past 100 years or so. Unless you believe that women have genetically changed to prefer pink over 3 generations then it's definitely something else at work.
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If there was a who then it is by definition nurture.
I have a lot more to say on this but have decided this forum isn't the right place.
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So we have times and places where both are true. Which makes it even more likely to be nurture/cultural than nature surely.
On mobile right now but if you look up 'pink is for boys Smithsonian' there is an interesting article about it with comments by Paoletti, she says that in clothing at least it was white for everyone until mid 19th then gender neutral until WW1.
Reading your article all the early references are about announcement messages not clothing which are chosen by the parents who would have decades of cultural influences by that point.
@csallen I think it would be kind of cool to have a startup map of the world, so you can visually see the spread of founders from different places. Especially for those of us living outside the US and outside the valley, bootstrapping is a way of life because the ecosystem is different it's kinda cool to be able to see that people like you from where you live or places you have lived are making it in the world of indie hacking.
Agreed, and I'd like to do something like that eventually. Will take a while to get to it.
Referring to men as "dude people" would probably make the community less appealing and shift the balance to a bit fewer men. I'll definitely be less inclined to stick around if that nomenclature becomes the norm. Relentlessly reducing human beings to group affiliations and declaring some to be "diverse" and other not to be could certainly change the balance too. Either one would start the community down the toxic path of becoming another HN.
People are treated unfairly. Which groups depends heavily on culture and situation (and some get the short end of the stick in a LOT of situations). Not only that but the personal characteristics that people can be treated unfairly for extends far beyond the heavily politicized ones. Bald people in the US tend to be perceived as less competent or even more evil non-bald people in similar jobs. Shorter people and overweight people are also paid less. Etc, etc, etc.
It's an ugly truth but people tend to be very tribal, whether it's about ethnic background, language, political affiliation, religion or even just which school they attended.
The only way I know of to include a genuinely (as opposed to superficially) diverse group of people is to treat each person as an individual deserving of respect.
Well put.
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What goals do you want to see in the IndieHacker community related to diversity that you'd want to contribute to?
Part of the thing I love about IH is that it's not all on @csallen to make it a community. We get to do that by how we contribute as members.
Do you have suggestions for Podcast or Product interviews? Are you thinking something like specific threads: Female Founder Friday, or EU Founder Thursday, or African Founder Monday?
I'm really happy with the quality of the community here, very respectful, keeps on topic and gives good feedback and transparency.
I’m thinking not so much focus on minorities or special days/events, but just having the makeup of the community be a more diverse mix - with diverse backgrounds come diverse ideas and better solutions. So I’m thinking about how we can increase the diversity of the overall IH community, not because it’s bad as it is but because many threads seem to consist solely of one demographic.
There was a similar discussion about this a couple months ago, check it out here
https://www.indiehackers.com/forum/any-female-indie-hackers-7857582d68?commentId=-L5F_EbQKjDHJfQK-q6E
Great thread - I’m thinking more broadly, rather than one thread highlighting female founders.
The only thing I'm actively doing at this point is bringing on a more diverse set of interviewees for the podcast. It was difficult last year, because I was doing everything so last-minute that it was a challenge just to find my next guest. But I've got a big enough backlog this year that I can be picky. One way you all can help is to send me suggestions for people you think would be great to hear from for AMAs, text interviews, podcasts, etc. (I think all of these have more reach than normal forum threads, too.)
http://www.businessinsider.com/castbox-ceo-renee-wang-funding-netflix-of-podcasting-2018-4
Castbox founder and CEO Renee Wang sold her home in Beijing to take on her startup venture.
Thank you! Rarely do people take my requests for suggestions seriously.
Don't know if my little app and 5 year journey is worth covering, but I'm across the bay which makes face - to - face easy.
Send me an email!
interesting, can you elaborate a little more?
I enjoyed reading Technically Wrong recently. I'd recommend it to you all. As a female founder it opened my eyes to some valid points.
The concept of 'meritocracy' being coined and written about by someone in a way that was meant to be satire was especially revealing to me.
Diversity of people and ideas is so crucial and important to the future of software and society. And the only way to create that diversity is about having more diversity in our communities.
How that is achieved, is another question. I'm not against the idea of giving minorities 'boosts' because they are a minority. Afterall, they've been surpressed and treated unfarily for so long, that the least we can do is help them out a bit.
I'm not interested in celebrating women just because they are women. But at the same time I am interested in hearing stories from other women as they may be more relevant to me as a founder. Just like I'd be interested in hearing from unschoolers. Parents. Education. Online communities. Software testing related stuff.
These themes identify with me. And if I don't see stuff related to this, then I will lose interest.
Something else to consider is the growing number of people who don't identify as a man or a woman: nonbinary folks. Yes, even founders and developers. I agree with Christina that people shouldn't make a distinction. But part of the issue is when folks don't even realize their language is excluding others. And I think the only way to learn is by asking questions and listening to other people's experiences without judgment.
We could organize an 'Indie Hacker Diversity Day' to help celebrate and attract more people from diverse audiences, such as female founders, non-binary founders and founders of diverse ethnicities, cultures and ages etc.
We could try and launch the initiative ourselves or tag onto a pre-existing day, such as:
'World Day for Cultural Diversity for Dialogue and Development'
The timing works pretty well; we'd have just under a month to get things in order and prepare.
On the celebrating side, we could do posts, videos and podcasts covering diverse founders who are crushing it and talk about ideas and methods we can implement in our local communities/workspaces, as well as online and here on IH.
On the attracting side, we could do cross posts on different subreddits and Facebook groups etc., with links to the content relevant to Diversity Day on IndieHackers - the more diverse the groups, the better.
Obviously this wouldn't absolve us of any further responsibility in ensuring diversity within the IH community, but it might be a good place to start.
If anyone's keen to make this happen, pop a reply below or message me and we can figure out a more organised battle-plan!
I'm a minority: teen indie hacker here ;)
Great to have you here @zapproximator, it's awesome that you're getting stuck in already! 🤜🏼🤛🏼
What’s with all the downvotes? This is a great idea 👌
It was downvoted because it suggests putting identity politics front and center. I don't support categorizing, stereotyping and prioritizing people based on groups you choose to put them into.
It's not very ethical. Furthermore, identity politics invariably polarize communities as it leads people to more strongly identify with and fight on the behalf of their own "tribes".
Yes: putting identity politics front and center in order to positively benefit those affected by the issues that are caused by un-inclusivity and non-diversity...
A pre-cursor to solving anything is to first put it front and center so it can be improved upon - racism, for example, wasn't solved by keeping discussions and movements behind closed doors, but rather the opposite: bringing the politics front and center.
I'm not suggesting we put anyone into groups - rather we celebrate those who actively choose to be a part of X group on their own accord, and whom otherwise might not receive much celebration/recognition currently due to social stigma/alienation.
???
In my opinion, using a UN recognized 'world' day to try and make us all more welcoming and aware of others who are more diverse than us shouldn't be avoided under the pretence it would lead to a form of cognitive dissonance as you're describing it.
I'm genuinely sorry if you took offence to my suggestion or found it to be counter-intuitive, that was the opposite of my intentions, but I'll be honest in admitting it seems like your reply lacks a logical string to hold your argument together.
If anything, all I ask is that instead of finding ways to pull apart something that was intended to improve the situation, that you constructively address the problems you have with it, and, importantly, you offer an alternative solution that we can consider adopting instead.
The world would be a better place if everyone planted a tree after cutting one down.
Edit:
On the second run through, I've realised that I agree with these statements, too.
After reading another one of your comments, I've reached the conclusion that we have a very similar philosophy towards these issues.
In all honesty, I wrote my original post as a challenge to myself to actively try and help the cause in a small way - partially in fact, because as a cis-gender, straight white male I've recently been exposed to a lot of these types of questions and discussions and wanted to push myself to try and participate instead of feeling slightly alienated by it and scrolling on by.
My mindset and thoughts on these matters are very much evolving - something I remind myself as to make sure I don't think I'm correct at every stop along the way.
I see where you are coming from with your reply more clearly now that I (think I) better understand your philosophy.
With that being said, I do think that you may have been slightly over-zealous with how you interpreted my suggestion - let me explain:
We shouldn't be prioritising people due to their diversity (or lack thereof), I completely agree, yet helping to show those who otherwise might not get involved with this community that they're welcome and would be valued (as opposed to how the rest of society may have made them feel: under-valued and un-welcome) might not be a bad thing.
Long-term, I don't think I like the idea of a future in which we constantly, and to some extent exclusively, celebrate those are diverse just because they are diverse in specific, political and/or superficial ways.
As you made clear in your other post I replied to, everyone is diverse in infinitely different ways, and therefore the ultimate solution is to simply treat everyone equally based on their individual actions as best as possible.
But, alas, helping to correct the negative balance set historically by society with some temporary initiatives could be a key tool in correcting the skewed balance and then cracking on with advancing to an individual focused social mindset.
I often used to argue against ideas such as this, and frequently stated:
"Positive discrimination doesn't work: it's a band-aid solution to a surgical problem."
I propose a new, perhaps improved statement:
"Treating a wound might mean using a band-aid temporarily before surgery can be performed, and that's okay."
I definitely didn't take offense to your comment and I think it had laudable intentions behind it. I just don't think the proposal will have a good effect in the long run.
There are enthic groups who have been in conflict for over a thousand years, and while efforts to make up for past wrongs or to prioritize previously oppressed groups is common, the conflict continues. I don't like a focus on group identity because people have repeatedly demonstrated an ability to be remorseless and cruel to out-group individuals.
Minimizing group identity and focusing on utilitarian good for all, particularly those in need is a better way, in my opinion.
Touché, thanks for helping me understand where you're coming from - I agree with what you're suggesting.
Here, here!
Thanks @shellco - I'm sad to see my post has been downvoted without much feedback as to why.
Great post!
Also, what can we do as a community to promote diversity?
How can we make sure our environment is safe for everyone to be themselves and not be harassed?
❤️🌈👩💻
Would love to hear opinions on this! I love this little community and want it to be a great place for all.
I think a key thing is, when posting or commenting, thinking - who will read this post who is not like me? Does it exclude them, or make any assumptions about who they are?
@nictuku @shellco In addition, let me know if you see something/someone on the forum that needs dealing with! Generally, I've been really impressed with how most people have handled themselves without much moderation on my part, but the few times I've felt the need to step in, the "offenders" were very understanding, and either decided to change their behavior or to leave.
IH is the friendliest English-language community of its size I've ever encountered online.
Thanks for the response! In an ideal world the community will self-propagate a positive attitude to diversity, so definitely keen to contribute to that.
Most entrepreneurs develop pretty thick skin. Really great to have a community where that is not necessary.
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Thanks. I didn't mean to suggest that IH has issues - but I guess that's what my comment appeared to be saying, my bad.
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