Advice for dealing with copycats
We run an email marketing platform, called EmailOctopus. Over the past few years, we've had a few companies copy bits from us, whether it be our colour scheme or the Javascript used for our HTML forms.
Example of a previous 'copycat'
In those cases, a polite message to the founder has gone a long way and the cloned elements have been quickly removed or edited sufficiently, and we're happy with that. Lots of brands inspire us - we understand, it can be a fine line between inspiration and impersonation.
Last month, however, we received notification via Google Alerts of another competitor (reasonably large, they've been interviewed on IndieHackers) who has completely ripped off a whole landing page, taking all our copy and even forgetting to remove the reference to our brand.
Again, we sent a quick message to the founder, which hasn't been acknowledged but they did remove the reference to EmailOctopus. So we assume they received it. We've since followed up via email and on LinkedIn where the emails have been read, but still, the page remains. At this point, we're speaking with lawyers, but this is all going to cost us a few hundred dollars to do - which is rather frustrating.
Wonder if anyone had any other advice they could share if they've come across something similar?
Below are some examples of the copy which has been taken.
I personally wouldn't waste more than a few minutes sending an email or two. Copycats happen, it's par for the course, and playing whack-a-mole isn't going to help you grow your business tbh.
Yes, this may be ethically against what you see as fair, but in my experience dealing with people from all over the world, there is a very wide range of what different cultures consider to be ethically okay with regard to copying, with "The West" being by far the most anti-copying. So I'd say don't take this personally.
You’re right, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Courtland.
Hi Thomas,
I randomly met your brother at a conference in London a few weeks ago. Seems like you guys have your heads screwed on properly.
Anyway, as far as your question is concerned, I have a few follow up questions of my own:
Is there a threat of mistaken identity? (Are the copycats demonstrably profiting from their association with your brand?)
If so, is it worth fighting in court?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then it's obviously something worth taking seriously. and talking to a lawyer about.
If not, then you'd probably be better off focussing your energy into improving your business so that these copycats (and other competitors) won't be more than a short-term annoyance.
After all, if you understand and serve your customers better than anyone else, then you win long term. Even if everyone copies your landing page, they still won't have the insight, experience and passion necessary to make your customers happier than you can.
Good luck!
Good feedback. Almost certain there's no chance of mistaken identity, just very annoying a fellow IndieHacker has copied about 1000 words of ours and seems quite proud of it.
I think you're right in saying that the most rational thing to do would be to turn that annoyance into something positive and put that energy into growing on our own business, rather than chasing lawyers.
Dealing with Copy cats is a very annoying problem. Most small teams I have been at the biggest problem these copy cats presented us with was distraction. If people aren't taking the time and energy to build their own products with thoughts and intention there is a good chance they aren't a competitor at all. I think the advice Louis gave was great. If they aren't actively hurting your business then don't let that deter you from pursuing great work and further distancing yourself from them.
But it still is frustrating to have someone rip off your work.
This is a clear case of copyright violation. If their host is based in the US, file a DMCA takedown notice. It only takes a few minutes and you can get a template online. I went through that process with someone who copied my entire blog post into their own site (which started ranking competitively with my original post).
They were hosted by Amazon and their page with the stolen content literally went down within hours of my emailing the notice to Amazon.
I agree with the others that copycats aren't much of a threat. However this is a case of more than just borrowing inspiration. It's such a clear violation of copyright and straightforward enough to respond to that it's probably worth it to do so.
Thanks for this advice. The DMCA sent to Google & Amazon seems to have done the trick and the page is now removed.
Glad to hear it!
Solid advice 👏
@td_evans
So, basically you're talking about Moonmail and @AlexandreSaiz right?
You can contact their Head of Products directly at this email...
a@alexandresaiz.com
He has been contacted on multiple occasions, via multiple platforms, the only success was then removing our brand name.
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The text is a word-for-word copy. Why is stealing words any different to stealing code?
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Mmm, I disagree here, for several reasons:
Public criticism is simply something you have to face when running a company. There is no guarantee of anonymity, nor should there be in my opinion.
I don't think the level of criticism in this thread amounts to one-sided character assassination. It's mostly just a discussion around how to deal with the situation.
Most importantly, Alex has the opportunity to jump in and respond if he'd like to, especially since he was tagged.
Founders make mistakes, get public complaints, and then have the opportunity to fix them or respond however they choose. It's happened to me with Indie Hackers plenty of times. It's happened to Stripe, Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Y Combinator, pretty much any company you can think of. Not a big deal imo.
I believe anonymity is important, that online witch hunts are deeply damaging on a social level and that doxxing should carry legal consequences. As the anonymity of writers (particularly in the political and religious realm) is pierced, the very most abusive governments, organizations and individuals gain the power to become even more so.
That said, in the case of a public facing business, complaints about the business are fair game, IMO, (in sharp contrast to the founder's lifestyle/ethnic background/sexuality/politics/etc... unless they're running for office or truly a figure of public note)
Hi Courtland,
As you know I always respect your perspective, despite not always agreeing with you.
Your reasoning is sound, apart from bullet point 3. A tag, where email notification may be turned off, can hardly be considered a fair chance of response, to an already highly prejudiced thread.
IMO the op has only given MoonMail lots of free marketing.
Wow, I thought my question was simple, here.
I just asked what was the difference between written plain text and written code. Didn’t expect this essay and this thread was certainly not intended for feedback beyond the scope of a landing page being copied word-for-word.
Apologies if I gave the impression that they had copied any more than that.
Lol, in what world are you living? Those guys copied word by word with intent...this is stealing.
You know why? Because some companies put tons of money on copywriting, A/B testing, etc... you are basically stealing that money.
Seems that you are very vocal on IH, the cynic in me thinks that's just to promote the link to your newsletter from your profile, but I might be wrong.
@webapppro
You certainly have an opinion on almost every subject discussed here on IndieHackers.
You say it's not cool to call out names. Yet you critique and judge on everything on this forum, but of course hiding behind a handle @webapppro and all you link to in your bio is a Squeeze Page.
Live your life like you please, and let others do the same.
Invest your time on Marketing and Sales. At the end of the day is the money you make selling that will feed you, not a high ranking among Indie Hackers.
Have a nice day.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Back in my previous startup we did quite much of business cooperation to get content to our customers. Businesses got visibility in our service and we got content.
Anyways, I remember one nationally big business where we went on to show the beta version of our app. They were thrilled, and we even included them in our beta program.
A couple months later all communication stopped with them. We found out about half a year later that they had took our app and made pretty much identical copy of it with their own brand.
At that time our app was many iterations better, we had existing user base and most importantly more content in our app. Those were differentiators that they could not copy.
I'd like to challenge you to think what are the things that differentiate you from your competitors: what do you have that's hard or impossible for your competitors to copy? If you don't have anything, then you should be scared, because anyone can copy your business model and run with it. If you do have your own unique assets, then don't bother more than an email if someone copies your website.
It's just flattery.
I fully understand how you feel about this. It's easy to say "it's two paragraphs, get over it", and that may even be good advice, but they are your paragraphs and the size of the theft is not necessarily reflected in the sense of violation.
(A personal story, for context: I was once cut up in traffic in a town centre, by a van belonging to a pie manufacturer. I've never bought one of their pies since. And that was 1989. If you were to suggest that I have an unreasonable ability to hold a grudge, I could not dispute that.)
If it was me, I'd want justice. Injustice is one of the worst things in the world. And I'd be blinded to the fact that, in all probability, I'm not going to get it. Now, that's not a reason to do nothing - if none f us ever do anything, this kind of thing perpetuates and grows.
You've done some sensible things. Posting here was sensible (and I think you were wise not to engage too lightly in the risky practice of "name and shame" - I expect I would have named the culprit, so you're smarter than I.) Sounds like you've got one or two suggestions of what else to try, especially about the DMCA from @alchemist if that's an option for you (not something I knew about, so certainly was interesting for me to learn about this too).
If you get nowhere with that, I guess my only advice would be to add one more name to your list of enemies (you have a list, right? I mean, that's a normal thing, isn't it?), have a couple of beers, and (sorry) move on. And never, ever, let go of that grudge! ;)
(And I have to say that the other party was pretty dumb not to just rewrite the text - it's a couple of fucking paragraphs! How long would it have taken him? If only just to make you go away? And save himself becoming known as "that cut'n'paste bloke off IH".)
Best of luck with the product!
Very cool headed advice, Graham.
The only issue with carrying grudges is that energy doesn't disappear, and too much of it can block one's mental apparatus - like a stray variable in a complex program. You're right though, the sense of injustice is stinging and hard to shake off.
There's a saying, in media, that all publicity is good publicity.
@bball has alluded to this. The overwhelming outcome of this thread, is that I now I have MoonMail deeply imprinted in my subconscious. Probably, when a cheap mass-mail AWS hosted solution is required - for better or worse - they will be the first company I think off, I'm probably not alone.
The op has essentially, used his precious time and energy hyping a much smaller competitor: the world is a paradox: and I would bet hard earned money that MoonMail's sales have gone up this week. Just as a celebrity scandal, even if seedy, only raises the celebrity's media stock and brand.
Who knows, there may be even some people who admire the alleged cunning at play here. In fact, the other company, by not getting dragged into this - seems to have the upper hand - they're above responding. The roles have switched, and the smaller company appears stronger. It may be even that the obstinacy in not changing their copy is intended to distract and consume the op's energy.
This is the rub, all passions, especially anger have a habit of leading to irrational and unintended outcomes.
Just be aware of them. Note what they're doing better and improve your own assets.
Track where the advertise, where they run content, and where they're promoting themselves.
Run a promotion for anyone who wants to abandon their platform and try your service instead.
Turn your next campaign into something they would be embarrassed to copy.
Send a DMCA. Free, will only take a few minutes and most large hosting companies (even many not located in the US) will take the content down. Be absolutely sure you're in the right though, otherwise it can backfire.
Thanks! We're definitely in the right here, the page was so obviously copied that they included our business name in the copied text. Seeing as this is quick, might well give this a go.
Will let you know how we get on.
Thanks for this advice. The DMCA sent to Google & Amazon seems to have done the trick and the page is now removed.
This could be a ploy by a larger player in the market to distract you from your core business.
BTW, how did you know about it anyway? What are you doing on the competition's sites?
The page still contained our brand name so came up in our Google Alerts.
I hadn't heard of moonmail until today. So be careful how loud you're shouting your competition's name.
That is frustrating.
I had a competitor register my name with an extra letter ( for people who didn't remember how to spell it ) and re-routed to their site. At the end of the day, you might be able to collaborate or make each other stronger.
What stage are you guys in? Seed? Series A? How is your company performing?
I think those are important questions because at the end of the day you have to see if going after people who copy your content is worth your time. In most cases, it's not worth your time. Copycats will always remain copycats and never take the first place.
If you are relatively larger than the copycats, then there is not much to really worry about. It's like that guy who is selling replica Rolex watches around the corner, they'll never be you. Keep doing what you're doing best and innovate. You'll take the leads.
If you are smaller than the copycats, then that's a great thing. You got yourself a fish larger than you who thinks you are doing better than them. I would become close to them and figure out how I can benefit from them as they are benefiting from me.
Don't waste your time with lawyers and legal battles. They do nothing but wasting your time. Your opponent may lose, but so will you. You will lose your precious time and your time is money.
Goodluck man!
We are self-funded, bootstrapped with a high 6 figure ARR.
They use Baremetrics so we can see we're significantly larger than they are. Their monthly revenue is hovering around the $20,000 mark.
The advice seems to be quite universal, don't worry about it. I'm not massively stressing about this instance, however, I do feel there's a 'code' with IndieHackers which they've broken and that pisses me off. You're probably right in saying that energy should be turned onto growing on our own business, rather than chasing lawyers.
Thanks for the feedback!
Some people lack ethics: it's a reality of any competitive field: politics, academia, medicine, science and not surprisingly business.
To paraphrase, someone I can't recall, if you forgot about these people and let go of all malice and anger towards them, time has a funny way of taking care of them. I.e their lack of ethics, often precipitates their own downfall in poetic ways.
I feel your frustration on this. I had a competitor clone my entire ecommerce store once (using the same hosted software as me) and when I reached out to my hosted ecommerce software provider, they said they couldn't do anything.
It's also worth pointing, that unless you're a lifestyle marketer or keen to use platforms like IH for marketing; it may be worth keeping your success secret, to avoid this type of competition.
I'm sure transparent companies, that publish figures, likely represent the tip of the iceberg.
Thomas,
The web is an open platform, and email marketing is a multi-billion dollar industry.
In the scheme of things (as you allude), your product itself isn't that original. This is the beauty of such a large market, there's room for lots or similar products with very little differentiation in terms of offer. Let's consider ConvertKit for example, what did it do that MailChimp or Aweber couldn't?: hasn't it aped features of its competitors like drip's tokens and MailChimps automatons while presenting them as novel creations? Yet ConverKit is a large successful company, because it catered for a specific niche in the market (bloggers), and was more successful in leveraging content marketing and affiliate referrals as acquisition streams.
ConvertKit and the others mentioned have premium pricing, very costly for large companies: que the subniche of bargain pricing email marketing on AWS, there are many players in this field, and you weren't the first, nor will you be the last.
It's a fact of life that any mildly successful company will attract copycats. Sure you've posted unsubtle examples, where there is legal recourse, but these are hardly a concern: idiots who can't remove your company name from their HTML can hardly be taken seriously as competition. They'll grab a few customers, but their own incompetence will let them down in the long-run. Most likely having your solicitor put them on notice, along with take-down notices to their ISP/google will stop them in their tracks. Nothing fancy, just a standard series of letters you have on auto-play.
What is more worrying is the intelligent competition, these will be alert that you're doing well. They'll call their company, MailArrow or MailGuardian: your color pallete works well so they'll use it, they'll also learn from your copy and pricing and any adds you may run. The icons on your site are from libraries, so they'll use the same library. In fact, they will legally monitor and scientifically analyse every move you make: your company is in the public domain, after all. This new MailArrow will be very effective at competing with you, but what can you do? They're not idiots and they haven't carbon copied you! They're legitimate competitions, just like one supermarket opening next to another one.
Basically you can stress yourself over idiots who carbon copy and aren't really a threat, and not worth the legal hassle. Even if you take these people to court, the more dangerous competitors you have no legal recourse against, though their watching you closely and represent a serious existential challenge.
The only sane advice, is to focus your energy completely on your growth, and ensuring you're maximizing retention and acquisition: i.e get your game face on.
Hi there,
A couple of points:
Totally agree that the email marketing world is competitive. Also, agree that an email marketing platform focussing on campaigns isn't particularly innovative. I believe we were the first hosted SaaS (Sendy obviously was around before us) in the AWS niche and as such we've been pretty heavily featured on Amazon's own website but agree that niche has now filled up with many competitors.
Intelligent competition doesn't concern or worry me massively, in fact, I'd welcome it fully. There's more than enough space in the email marketing world for innovative companies and I'd respect that innovation. I know it's a more emotional reaction, than rational, but lazy competition really annoys me but you're right in saying that annoyance should be used and redirected into growth.
Thanks for taking the time to feedback!
(As an aside: Our icons aren't just taken from libraries, the majority are created from scratch, in-house, by our own designer, Ryan. A few may have started out as AI files, but they've been heavily edited too, I believe. It's a very minor point, but want him to get the credit he deserves for his great work)
Completely agree with this - time you're using to worry about others is time wasted. It's beneficial to understand your competition, but unless someone literally reverse engineered your entire platform, it's not worth getting caught up into.
Keep growing, and keep having fun!
Build brand equity.
you could ask for help form the law.
Build the best Cat - Then what do care what they copy? ;)