Concerns about the future of Indie Hackers

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

The issues you bring up are things I've thought about since the beginning of Indie Hackers back in mid-2016, and then reconsidered after joining Stripe. What makes someone an indie hacker? What kind of stories should we focus on?

The answer that feels best to me is for Indie Hackers to be defined by how much it helps rather than who it excludes.

Ideally, a few years from now, IH is still a place where aspiring and early-stage founders can come to directly support each other in starting new businesses and overcoming specific challenges. But it should also be a place where new founders can connect with and learn from their role models. That requires having successful business leaders contributing to the community by appearing on the podcast, writing articles, doing interviews and AMAs, sharing the stories behind the decisions they're making, and answering questions from other founders. In other words, if Indie Hackers excludes people who are further along with their businesses, it won't be as helpful to those who aren't.

I've also tried to avoid being too prescriptive about how exactly one "should" build a business. There are strong opinions on every side — to raise money or not, to quit your job or not, to work long hours or not, etc. But the right answer depends on who you are, the constraints you're operating under, the kind of business you're starting, and what stage it's at. So Indie Hackers feels better to me if it focuses on simply highlighting as many stories and paths as possible, and doesn't become immediately useless to anyone who passes a certain point with their business.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for a lack of focus. The core of the site certainly revolves around the niche of developers launching side projects and turning them into businesses, and I think that's a good thing.

There will be growing pains for sure, as more people join the community and try to profit from it in one way or another. There's a lot more for us to improve here, and there will always be times where we fall behind a bit and (hopefully) times where we pull ahead. But we're working on it pretty much constantly.

Also, I'm happy to see threads like this, from people who care, and I've been pleasantly surprised by how effective you all are at upvoting the best stuff on the forum and flagging the spam.

@ericnething I found it very difficult to engage with your criticism of IH given the tone of your post. Of course it's a free world and (valid) criticism is useful and should be welcomed - however a less sensational/more friendly tone might serve your purpose better in future (just my $0.02).

What I love about the IH community is the feedback and support we provide for each other. Many on here are first-time founders, some of us are a bit further along - but we're all still indie hackers.

To my mind, that makes it pretty much inevitable that some of the posts I find really interesting (eg @Laura 's post on fundraising her - previously bootstrapped - company) won't be of direct use/interest to many of the users on this forum (eg those who are asking for advice on how to find first customers/landing page feedback). But that doesn't mean either kind of post is out of place on IH.

Someone else made a thread to ask if they should open a domestic or offshore bank account. Are you kidding me?

What's wrong with this question? I've founded a company selling to customers abroad before, and this is a genuine question which came up. Again - just because you personally aren't facing the same problem currently, doesn't mean it isn't a useful discussion for other indie hackers...

in the very good threads about if you should quit your job to pursue your side project, I see people spreading nonsense about "you have to work 12 hours a day"

Indie Hackers is a community where we can discuss this kind of thing. If you think a certain piece of advice/an opinion is wrong (some of it definitely is), then challenge it. Who knows, you might just learn something new in the process (I have).

I never felt the need to comment (or create an account) until today, to voice my concerns

In a community like IH, we should try and give and take in equal measure. To me, this just sounds like you were perfectly happy to read the advice and opinions given by IH users, without ever bothering to help or give back. I'm not sure that's the best foundation from which to launch a post criticising the actions of others on IH (and I doubt you'll find much sympathy).

Then, of course, there are the spammers.

I agree, this has become more prevalent - but the flagging system works just fine for me. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of 'a bit of spam' than 'genuinely useful content being rejected by mistake'.

Sorry for the long response. If I were to sum up in a TLDR, it would basically be: "Indie Hackers is a community. If you don't like something, contribute more of what you do like - but remember that your experience and expectations of being an indie hacker may differ from others."

"What indie hacker has that kind of money to throw around?"

People like me with profitable bootstrapped businesses! :p

Hey Eric,

I agree with your concerns about the platform loosing focus. Did you see Courtland's post yesterday about how to improve the newsletter? Myself and a few other indie hackers shared their opinion that Indie Hackers should be a place for developers to talk about bootstrapping software businesses.

At the same time, I can see how there could be a place for interviews with funded companies. I've just always preferred the interviews where the funding came after product-market fit and the founder(s) had to really hustle to get the company off the ground. I don't think taking funding, in and of itself, is bad or a problem in this community. But there really should be (in my opinion) a bias towards founders who started by indie hacking their company in the beginning.

I think Courtland has done an amazing job with IH. I've frequently been blown away at his skills as an interviewer on the podcast. The website is absolutely beautiful. We really should figure out the right balance as a community before the core audience loses interest / is pushed away. I don't live in SF and Indie Hackers is a great way for me to have discussions with like-minded individuals and feel like I'm not alone in my entrepreneurial journey.

You know, to a certain extent I agree with you... I think what you've noticed is a shift in conversation from indie hacking to startups.

Ultimately it depends on how you define an "indiehacker". The difference is subtle but there is a difference -- all indie hacker projects can be startups but not all startups can be indie hacker projects.

Imo, there are a couple of factors that separate indie hacker projects from startups:

Side project

• An indie hacker is typically a developer who wants to turn a side project into something a little bit more. They are starting their journey to becoming an "entrepreneur" but have that "hacker at heart" attitude

More frugal than most

• They say necessity is the mother of innovation and indie hackers can attest to that. Indie hacker projects are all about staying light and remaining nimble.

More action than talk

• Indie hackers are action driven. That doesn't mean they always know exactly what they want to build or which decision to make but it means that when they do, look out because they hit the ground running

Startups usually have a loftier "eat the world" kind of view

• Indie hacker projects are less about dominating the world and more about creating something that makes a good return. In a way, they are a little bit more black and white than startups because they are less about the "show" and more about the product.

Profitable isn't a dirty word

• Indie hackers more than anyone know it's ok to want to make a steady and sustainable profit from as early on as possible. Being profitable means you will be around, helping your customers for a long time.

Every community that grows will go through growing pains. The shift you noticed may just be the natural ebb and flow of the community since there is a lot of overlap between startups and indie hacker projects, so I'm not too concerned just yet.

Also another story to add to the list of stories that captures what IndieHackers is all about (and since you already have Ark Servers): ParkIO

While I am very new to this forum, I know that managing an online community is an incredibly tough thing to do over the long term. I founded and still run the large online community https://tribemagazine.com

I have been doing it since 1994 and can say from experience that it can be a thankless job but also completely rewarding.

An online forum is a delicate balance between the flow of personalities and their posts and how that mix changes over time and evolves.

Over and above the technical piece of keeping spammers out, a founder also has to take a larger view of their online community's culture and making small changes in one area to keep members on the same page thematically can have unforeseen impacts in other areas of a community.

Members will come and go, but core members - wise old timers and excited n00bs- can keep a community on the beam as other members try to destabilize it (either on purpose or by their own default personalities).

In my case, my members notify me when something needs to be dealt with and I act quickly on that, and I have a zero tolerance policy for spam. I am also very quick to delete posts and I ban people immediately, especially in the case of spammers. I put a lot of trust in my members to tip me off to problems, but even they can get extra bitchy about nothing sometimes so you have to account for that.

Props to @csallen for making this forum a reality and I wish him the best of luck as Indiehackers continues into the future.

I have been away from the forum for a while but I listen to the podcast on a regular basis. I'm one of those people who was around in the early days.

While I don't agree about the comments on @Laura I think @ericnething is making some important points. It's also great to see how to community has responded with open/ genuine dialogue.

Personally, I have been taking a break from most content online because most of the places I used to go to are drowned out with clickbaity content. Most podcasts I have come across have someone selling a book in every episode. This is a trap that IH could easily fall into. Eric pointing this out before the amazing people that have congregated here lose interest, will prove to be value-able in my opinion. I feel like this is why I can't bare the idea of clicking on a Medium post any more.

With regards to the definition to what/ who an Indie Hacker is, I personally think of a person who starts out with an idea, and leverages technology to get it out there in a scrappy way.

I grew up around software and hardware so I usually think software first, but I think this community can also learn from people like @mijustin and @KevinSureSwift. It's useful to realise that there are people in this ecosystem who take part and add value in different ways. I believe it useful because they use techniques and develop ideas that we can all learn from while on our journeys.

Last point - starting off scrappy, doesn't mean you should stay that way for years to come. Our projects all have different amounts of potential and we have different goals. Hearing about Laura's challenges is really important if you are genuinely curious about where business can take you. Even if that's a journey you hope to avoid. While I don't personally want to build a big team, it's inspiring to hear someone take an idea to the point where those kinds of sums and decisions can be made. For me this platform has been about exposing those stories. Hearing the ups and the downs in great detail has been amazingly refreshing in contrast to the short, sound-bite/ clickbait content drowning everywhere else online.

You've done great work so far @csallen and @channingallen. Long may it continue.

(Surprised no one mentioned @levelsio interview. I thought he made great points about the lifestyle and setting expectations.)

I think you are overreacting. One post about funding among dozens about bootstrapping.

The one about opening an account domestic or not makes a ton of sense for me, and I am bootstrapping with almost no money to fund myself. This is because I live in Brazil, but I am building a SaaS aiming the USA market (bigger market and more disposable income).

I think you only have a point regarding spam, but still, there is a flagging system, right?

I agree about a lot of the content that has been popping up in the community section over the past 2 months or so. I also had a similar complaint of the Nathan Barry interview about ConvertKit—he was neither indie nor a hacker. After I made that comment I noticed this on the about page:

You're an indie hacker if you've set out to make money independently. That means you're generating revenue directly from your customers, not indirectly through an employer. Other than that, there are no requirements!

Indie hackers are often solo founders, software engineers, and bootstrapped, but it's totally okay if you have cofounders, can't code, and have raised money.

I'm not a huge fan of the term "indie hacker" being so broad that it includes Jeff Bezos and Colonel Sanders, but hey, it's Courtland and Channing's site so they can define it however they want.

I'd have loved to have seen a different interview about Laura's earlier business where she was totally indie and taught people how to use WordPress and Twitter. How to spend 500k to build something that can raise funding is fundamentally useless information to me and to most other IH readers.

However, her podcast interview was fantastic and it covered a little bit about those early days and also what she'd do now if she didn't have the money or the following.

I guess I'm long-IH Podcast, short-IH Articles.

So, I'm not super active here (for health/time reasons mainly) but I definitely feel called to respond:

First, I agree with you about glamorizing overwork. I've never done 12 hour days more than a few times a year. I have health problems and also a life. I'm living proof it's not required.

Second, everybody knows my feeling about VC. I think it's 99% a bad thing. Certainly it changes your life in ways you can't control. 1 in 100 can negotiate a good deal that won't compromise the company, the product, or their own happiness -- where it doesn't matter where the money came from. And nearly every time, that 1 is someone who doesn't need the money because they have their own. If a system only benefits people who don't need it, it's a bad system, etc etc ad nauseum.

Here's where I'm going to deviate from the party line though…

1. Laura didn't spend a $500k trust fund, she earned that money by bootstrapping. She's been working hard for a long time; she started as a freelancer, then in Wordpress education, then personal branding, and worked her way up. I personally am against VC, but you can't possibly say that Laura didn't earn her way there. She is an indie hacker.

2. I spent close to $200k of my own money on a SaaS as well. Guess what? It was money I earned with my own business. Does that make me not an indie hacker - despite having launched 3 SaaS apps without a single penny from anyone?

Should you ignore my advice because I'm successful?

3. I'm not joking with that question, by the way. It's a common mindset to think, "Well that person is so successful! Their success makes them irrelevant to me!" when, in fact, if they got the success through work, they are the people you should be paying attention to. It's easy and comforting to try to 'learn' from your peers only, who are in the same exact situation you are in -- and it's nice to feel like you're understood -- how will they know better than you, if you're all at the same stage? The way to tackle what's next is to look ahead.

4. Endless conversions about doubting yourself are actually counter-productive, because they become "support groups" where everyone talks about how bad they are/how rough they have it, instead of pursuing the one thing that cures the problem (doing the work).

It's not my community. I don't have the energy or patience to run one. But Indie Hackers is the closest thing we have to an anti-HN, and most of the points you raised are not really strikes against it.

@csallen I have been inspired by this site to start my own project. I have no idea if it will make money or not, but I feel like it is time to begin working on a side project. Have you ever considered having a feature that specifically highlights the projects your audience on the forums are working on? If I were to use a boxing metaphor this would be similar to an amateur division of indie hackers....

Eric I find myself in your concerns. It's hard to find a good community and even harder to see people flock and make it "worse". I guess it's inevitable if you have it open.

Being a developer I immediately tried to come up with a sw solution: personal thread.

Posts that you mark show in a special personal thread. This way you follow them easily and also form a base for rating posts (apart from exsisting upvote) and clustering of users. You might also had a feature to see someone's personal thread etc.

Although I can relate to some of your concerns, I can't help but feel you're being a bit over dramatic.

Who is to say an indie hacker is not allowed to spend a significant sum of their own money on their project/business? Or raise funding for that matter? There are plenty of scenarios where either one would make sense. Just because you can not relate to such a situation does not necessarily no one else in this community can. The referenced article could very well be useful for other members of this community.

I also found your comments regarding the questions about opening an off-shore bank account rather strange. I personally know a number of starting entrepreneurs (bootstrapping single founders) for whom this is a relevant topic. Again, just because you can't relate does not make it a wrong subject for this community.

As far as I know there are no hard and fast rules regarding what constitutes an indie hacker, other than taking control of your own life by building a business/product/project that generates an income.

I do agree with your comments regarding forum spam and a rather annoyingly high number of "Show IH" and "review my idea/landing page" topics. However, knowing the Allen brothers, I am sure they are aware of this and will continue to roll out improvements.

@ericnething While I agree with mostly everything, I see the tag of "@csallen" is not a tag, so it might not reach him.

When you type, select it from the dropdown as well, so you can be sure that the message reaches him 👍

Hey @ericnething just want to bring something to light that i've noticed after reading your post and through all the comments.

First to your post: I personally disagree with the comment about @Laura she did bootstrap and got to a point where she needed funding. Nothing wrong with that and you honestly can't tell me you'd shut down a project so successful because it's no longer "indie".

However, I do completely agree with that one user just posting articles to his blog, that's spammy and doesn't help anyone. I'm sure it'll be rectified through down voting at some point.

==========

Now to what i've noticed in the comments and want to bring to light:

It looks like alot of people here initially disagree with your points. But almost all of them are asking you to contribute more. I think that's important to point out because more people want to hear from you.

I hope that the negative reception to your post (for the most part) doesn't drive you away, but rather opens your eyes to the fact that people just want you to be more involved in the community.

Let yourself be heard. Down vote the things you don't like, upvote the things you do. Post and comment often with your ideas and thoughts.

This forum is definitely much different than the HN/Reddit style where you'd likely have been told to "f-off". People here genuinely want to hear from you. :)

That's all, thanks for your post. Glad to see it got so much engagement.

I posted the comment on the offshore banking...

Your post is all just your personal feelings and does not apply in the slightest to this community. This community as said by its founder is, "... a place where the founders of profitable businesses and side projects can share their stories transparently, and where entrepreneurs can come to read and learn from those examples."

As you can see this community was meant to be for entrepreneurs to learn from each others success and faileers to become more successful. To do this it is important for us to be able to share projects to get feedback or just ask general questions that we may be strugling with. It is not just meant for small side projects, it is meant for any size business.

I'm new to Indie Hackers but very familiar with Hacker News as well as other self improvement and business forums.

This post here is just nit picking. All these things you can make better by contributing yourself to each conversation.

The idea of being "heroic" and "sacrificing" your life to build a company is absurd and offensive.

Building a business does take sacrifice - not all your life but definitely major parts. Nothing absurd or offensive about that. That said, I'm guessing your sentiment is similar to DHH's and if so I agree that today extreme sacrifice for the company is fetishized.

People who are creating threads on the message boards with nothing but a link to their blog

Agree here. I think downvoting is the current tool to police this behavior though?

it's not the kind of community that I want to be a part of

Then help make it the one you want it to be. Your profile looks pretty darn light on participation, especially for having been here since the start. Contribute. You sound intelligent and perceptive and we'd probably all enjoy your thoughts now and then.

Caveat: I'm brand new to the community but by far the best thing I could find on the internet in this indie/nomad/start-your-own-business/app world.

I agree with @ericnething and @sky, to an extent.

The indiehackers brand is specifically about starting something on the side, without funding, pivoting towards user demands and slowly building it towards profitability. Key to this approach, is the idea of doing things on your terms.

This ethos contrasts strongly with the silicon valley - investor approach, where you rely on others validating your idea and giving you permission to go ahead.

I disagree you with on the Laurie Roeder article. Laurie is a commited bootstrapper who developed a concept where she simply needed more developer power than possible based on her existing resources. Even, when raising money, she did it on her terms - there's a lot to learn from this.

I think ocassionally, it can make sense for a bootstrapper to accept outside funding: solo non-technical founders being a key example.

I also find the banking/incoporation questions useful, when you're at a certain stage you need to think about taxes.

I do think the board would benefit from segregating, subjective chat like:

Doubting yourself

What are you working on this weekend?

from the more meaningful content, where indie hackers share their concrete experience and figures from their startups.

When a site becomes big, there is a tendency to try and become everything to everybody - which can become a pyrrhic victory as the ethos and underlying identity is diluted. Strong leadership is required in situation like this and a clear vision.

Working 12 to 15 hours a day isn't absurd or offensive, it's practical in the early stages. Especially given that speed to market is the second biggest competitive advantage in tech after network effects, slow and steady definitely does not win you the race.