Hey Indie Hackers! I’m the founder of Baremetrics, a business insights company that provides metrics, forecasting and engagement tools for subscription companies.
We’re a transparent company that shares as much as we can as often as we can (biggest source of that transparency is our own revenue dashboard as well as our blog). We also help others with our Open Startups initiative.
You can check out a bit more here in Indie Hackers with our interview and on the podcast!
Ask me anything!
I’ll be here to answer your questions all day Wednesday, April 4.
How did you get your first 100, 500, and 1000 customers?
First 100: Word of mouth, primarily from Twitter: https://baremetrics.com/blog/first-100-customers
500: Word of mouth between founders still played a major part, but content played a much bigger role as well. By the time we had 500 customers, we'd been producing content regularly for over 2 years. So that machine was firmly in place and had started working really well.
1000: We're not there...yet! Just over 800 customers at the moment. Content and word of mouth are still the primary methods, but SEO is playing a larger role now and we're focusing on optimizing for that as well.
Hi Josh, I have two questions:
I've read that you had two products before Barematrics that didn't get much traction, at what point should you quit a product and focus on launching something new?
At the early stage, how to get the confidence to charge a high price?
Btw, I'm a huge fan of your blog, keep it up :)
Thanks!
Thanks or the kind words! To your questions...
Knowing when to call it quits is really tough. Even when the numbers make it obvious, the emotional component usually drags things out longer than they need to. I wrote about this a few years back with a few things that hint your business isn't in a great spot: https://baremetrics.com/blog/signs-your-business-is-dying.
Charging a higher price early on was the result of charging so little on previous products and realizing I didn't want customers at a lower price point. I'd learned my lesson about how low-paying customers tend to be the highest maintenance. Also, as founders we're just generally really bad at understanding the worth/value of our products ("I wouldn't pay that much, so I bet others won't either!"). That's flawed and generally leads to most new startups charging far far farrrrr too little.
Awesome blog post about when your business isn't in a great spot! Thanks Josh!
Book recommendations? ;) If possible: business AND fun suggestions.
Business
I don't read many business books as they're generally 90% fluff and AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT. But here are a couple that have made an impact on me...
The War of Art - Steven Pressfield
Anything You Want - Derek Sivers
How to Win Friends and Influence People - Dale Carnegie
Tools of Titans - Tim Ferris
Fun
I could list 1000 books, but I'll...not do that.
Pandemic - A.G. Riddle
Dark Matter - Blake Crouch
Departure - A.G. Riddle
Wayward Pines Series - Blake Crouch
The Martian - Andy Weir
Nomad Series - Matthew Mather
Anything by Michael Crichton
WE HAVE A LOT TO DISCUSS ON APR20 😎👌
What are the primary customer acquisition channels from Baremetrics? Did you notice those channels changed over different stages of growth? And if so, how did it change?
The channels have morphed a bit over the years, but are still made up largely of these 3...
Word of mouth > Content marketing > SEO
As a busy founder, how do you determine each day/week what "the most important thing I should be spending my time on" is? How do you continually ensure the urgent doesn't overtake the important?
Congrats on the continued success of Baremetrics -- really appreciate the transparency and ongoing willingness to be helpful to other entrepreneurs.
Thanks so much, Dina!
Determining "most important" is tough. At any given time there are literally hundreds of things I could be doing.
As much as possible, I try to start with an end goal ("Grow to $100,000 MRR"), then walk backwards from there, step by step, to figure out the path.
So maybe that looks like...
Grow to $100,000 MRR < Increase expansion revenue < Add features < Talk to customers about problems they're having < Brainstorm feature ideas
Of course there are dozens of paths/forks in that road but really everything I do needs to tie back to that end goal by asking my self "Does this help get me any closer to the goal?"
That's rarely a completely obvious answer, but then again, if it was then business would be easy. :)
Hey Josh!
Huge fan and been following you for a while. Love the beard and the pugs. #goals
Question: What are the biggest obstacles to 10xing Baremetrics? I know you guys have relatively been at the same level of MRR for a while, and even took some funding for cash flow, but still haven't hit the next growth curve yet.
Thanks in advance!
Thanks Corey! I just need a bearded pug and I'll be set!
As for our growth...I wouldn't say we've been at the "same level of MRR". We've grown 35% in the past year and 5% just in the past 30 days.
I'm not focusing on 10x-ing anything. If/when we get there...cool. But massive growth isn't the goal, especially in a short period of time.
I want steady, sustainable and predictable growth and as long as we keep doing that profitably, I'll sleep just fine.
I thought you might say that! Love the strategy. Keep doing what you're doing.
Also, congrats on the redesign and push for the last few product updates! Everything looks amazing.
Based on your experience, how do you envision the future of analytics for startups?
I think metrics are becoming a commodity...every product will have them in some form or fashion.
However analytics (specifically the "analysis of data") is a much harder problem to solve. It's the "what does any of the data actually mean" and that's what we're trying to solve.
Who cares if their churn is X%...the number is largely arbitrary. What's exponentially more valuable is the "why"...why is a business's churn X% and how do we fix it?
That's the future we're focusing on.
I was thinking of signing up, what are some example of the "why" the product currently provides?
Right now some of those "whys" require a bit more work using things like Segmentation and Trial Insights. Plus things like Goals and Annotations give context to your data.
Automating the "why" is the long term play.
Do you need to be a super expert in the domain of your product to make it successful?
No. You just need to be an expert in helping your customers be successful. I know a lot more about metrics than I did 4 years ago, but I'm still not an "expert"...and that's fine because "metrics" aren't really why people use Baremetrics. They use Baremetrics to figure out how their business is performing and how to grow, and that's the kind of things we're ultimately trying to solve.
Hi Josh, big fan and avid listener of your podcast. Have followed your journey ever since you've made your metrics public.
I have a question about your recent e-commerce venture, Cedar and Sail @ cedarandsail.com.
I noticed you sell on Shopify but also have an inactive Etsy shop. Is there any reason why your Etsy shop remains dormant? Are you having challenges managing between the two? Is syncing inventories one of them?
P.S. I love concrete and you've got some beautiful planters!
Thanks for the kind words, James!
I shut down the Etsy shop a while back primarily because of those syncing issues you mentioned...was just too much hassle to manage entirely different storefronts and the sales from it weren't enough to justify that hassle.
In addition to that, I'm actually pushing the online stuff a lot less in 2018, focusing instead on doing lots of local markets.
Hey Josh, thanks for the answer!
Ah ok, that makes sense. If you ever do decide to start up your Etsy shop again, I've built software that syncs inventory between Etsy & Shopify–it's called Trunk (https://www.trunkinventory.com) and I'd love for you to try it. It would be awesome for me to give back.
I'm trying to make it easier for sellers to sell in multiple places 👍
If you could go back to your sixth month in business and give your past self some advice, what is one thing you would tell yourself to spend less time on (or stop doing) and one thing you’d tell yourself to do more of?
I'm happy with my level of focus in the early days (launched the first version of Baremetrics with just a week of work and kept that same pace for the first few months).
However, I'd tell myself to do more writing earlier. Took me a while to really start writing helpful content on a regular basis and since that type of stuff is a long game, I wish I'd started that machine earlier.
Looking at your revenue dashboard, it actually looks like you've gone through a TON of different types of subscriptions. What did the process look like to find the right pricing model? Is that still an ongoing process or do you feel like you found the right spot now?
ABTPLYFYLLPoCOtT: Always Be Testing Pricing Lest You Find Yourself Leaving Large Piles of Cash On the Table...as the kids say these days.
So we have a lot of plans but really have only test 2.5 pricing models.
Customer-based pricing -- Major buckets of pricing based on the # of customers you have
MRR-based pricing -- Major buckets of pricing based on the amount of MRR you have
Add-on pricing -- We do this with our Recover product...it's an additional fee on top of your base monthly fee.
We've also tested feature-gating on certain plans and then tested how low we want pricing to go as well as adjusting how many customers/MRR you get at given pricing points.
Pricing is an ongoing process and will always be an ongoing process. What worked a few years ago won't necessarily work today. Markets change, the product itself changes. So you should always run pricing tests.
Great advice. That's super helpful as we figure out our own pricing. Thanks so much for answering! :)
Thanks for doing this Josh. You publish a lot of great content, with your blog and the podcast. How much time do you spend on that and do you think it’s worth it?
I spend ~30% of my time on producing content of various types.
At this point, we see a pretty direct correlation between content and growth so I'll keep doing that until it stops being the case!
Cheers! I'm really enjoying the podcasts, so keep up the good work.
What's your opinion on starting out with a landing page to gauge market interests? Is it better to start building something right away?
Landing pages are terrible for gauging interest, assuming you actually want to build a business that makes money. 😛
Anyone can drop their email address in to a random form. Collecting email address implies zero intent...if anything it implies someone wants something for free because they literally gave up $0 when they gave you an email address.
The only validation is money.
Figure out the core problem you're trying to solve, build that absolute most basic solution to that problem and start selling/marketing it.
I built the first version of Baremetrics in a week. If nobody had wanted it, I would have been totally fine with basically no time lost.
However if I'd put a landing page up, spent time trying to get people to go give me their email address, while I poked away at building a product for months, then launched it to hundreds/thousands of people only to find I'd been building the wrong product...everybody loses.
You need to get a functional solution in front of potential paying customers as fast as humanly possible. If they actually pay you (not just say they'll pay you), then and only then have you made steps towards gauging market interest.
Hi Josh!
The thing I appreciated the most when you launched Baremetrics was how you reached out to your customers/prospects in a very personal way to get feedback and to steer the product in the right direction - curious about how many people you were able to chat with, how much of a time drain that was, and if you have kept that up since growing.
All the best, and keep up the good work!
I've spoken to hundreds of customers over the years and still keep it up. I speak to probably 3-5 customers/prospects a week. Not nearly as much as I did in the early days, but it's definitely still a regular occurrence.
Can you explain your view on why transparency is important?
There are two types of transparency: internal transparency and external transparency.
There are also varying levels of transparency...there's "sharing with customers how we're going to fix a data breach" transparency and there's "sharing with the public at large the salaries of everyone who works at the company" transparency. Very different beasts.
I think internal transparency in the sense of not hiding things from your team is crucial for team trust. At Baremetrics, the only thing I can think of that we don't share internally are salaries. Basically every other data point/metric are available to anyone on the team at any time.
I want everyone our team to not only trust in the direction we're headed but also feel a part of that, and to do that they need to be informed.
As for external transparency, communicating to customers when something goes wrong is an obvious thing to do, so I won't touch on that, however being transparent with "business health" is a fun topic. :)
Back in 2014, just a few months after I'd launched Baremetrics, I decided to make our dashboard public (demo.baremetrics.com) in part just due to laziness. I wanted to show off a demo, but didn't want to generate a ton of fake data. So, I just anonymized the customer info and flipped the switch. 😛
But in addition to that, there was a bit of altruism involved.
I'd been following guys like Alex Turnbull at Groove and Joel Gascoigne at Buffer as they shared so much about their business. It was just immensely helpful to me and I wanted to give back.
So, being transparent with not only our data but also the struggles and wins as we grew just felt like a natural move.
On top of that, if we're being honest, it's good marketing. We're a business tool for other businesses, so transparency not only helps other businesses grow, but it helps ours too.
I don't think external "share all the things!" transparency is right for every business. You need to have a narrative around it that makes sense for your customers. If you can't figure out how to tell a story with the data, it probably isn't worth it.
What were the first growth actions when you launched the product?
The first growth tactic that actually had a tangible impact was making our dashboard public (demo.baremetrics.com). That generated a lot of early buzz.
What have been the most effective ways for you to get traffic to the Baremetrics site?
Content! Our blog (https://baremetrics.com/blog) and Academy (https://baremetrics.com/academy) generate most of our traffic from both SEO and folks just sharing the content directly.
Thank you! How do you actually get traffic to that content? Because if I write something and just publish it, it's really unlikely I'll actually see traffic. Any traffic gen strategies? Thanks!
There are some good strategies and general tips for getting search traffic in Nat Eliason's 1-Hour SEO for Bloggers course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFPJhuqEkhk&list=PLkHkG0VxT2WigZ7_VU2luWc7FZuMKZbur
Hi Josh, I have three questions:
What type of DB do you use to store data?
How do you scale your infrastructure?
Do you use dedicated servers or some kind of cloud architecture?
Thanks in advance and keep up the great work.
I don't really know the answers to any of these as I'm very much not involved in this side of the company any more, but I'll take a few light stabs.
Currently on RethinkDB but working as fast as possible to get off of it and on to Postgres. That's oversimplifying it...there are an obscene number of moving parts to scale up TB's of data, but that's the basics.
¯\(ツ)/¯
Yes. We've got a mix of dedicated hardware and cloud depending on the part of the app.
Thank you for your answers. I wonder why you move away from RethinkDB as Postgres will be probably slower in your case.
Because Rethink is now unsupported and dying a slow painful death since they were acquired.
Do you feel like you've "made it"? What does "making it" mean to you?
Has your view on life changed at all since Baremetrics has found success?
What are your hope and dreams now?
I ask because when we haven't made it, we tend to focus on the what and how, but our why's are usually vague and based on assumptions we don't really have answers to. We assume "If I can just make it to $X a month, then I'll be happy". You've actually done it and hopefully can give some real perspective.
What are you most valuable customer acquisition channels?
Content has been the most consistent acquisition channel for us.
If you aren't ready to take the leap yet as a founder (need to save up a nest egg) what should you be doing to prepare yourself other than reading the usual?
Stop reading and start building. If you've got time to read, you've got time to build.
Starting something isn't an all-or-nothing game. In fact, for most it shouldn't for a while. You're asking for a world of hurt if you do nothing for months while you save up and then go all in just to find out your idea was terrible and nobody wants it. You'll burn through that nest egg really fast.
Don't prepare, just start on the dang thing.
How different is Cedar and Sail to Baremetrics in order to get feedback and improve?
You can improve the experience of your clients in Baremetrics, but if something happens with the products in Cedar and Sail the order is already shipped.
I want to understand the pace and feedback from a phisical product perspective.
It's quite different. The cycle time on improving physical products is just immense.
If someone hates the size of a concrete planter, it takes weeks (if not months) to make an adjustment.
On software, you could deploy an improvement in hours.
Also, most feedback on physical products is either overwhelmingly, obviously positive (lots of verbal praise) or it's complete silence and they just don't buy the product. Nobody emails to say "Hey, I was going to buy that concrete planter but I don't like it so I'm not".
Have you been successful with ads? Any actionables there?
In the early days retargeting worked well for us: https://baremetrics.com/blog/saas-retargeting
We don't spend any money on ads at the moment, though. It's just too expensive for someone like me with no experience to try to jump in and figure out.
Eventually we'll pay someone else to run some campaigns and optimize that for us.
Auburn or Alabama?
Avondale or Good People?
What habit has been the most helpful for you in hacking / living?
Agnostic.
Beer tastes like fermented death to me, so I'm indifferent. 😬
Exercise! Running, specifically. It's physical and mental therapy.
Any interest in doing analytics for stripe connect? I'm working on a marketplace app and I can't seem to find any off the shelf metrics providers. This would be for payments moving through my platform from buyers to connected sellers, rather than directly to my stripe account.
It's something that gets requested every few months. Unfortunately the economics of it haven't made a lot of sense.
There are certainly a decent chunk of people who have your set up but still not a lot (relatively speaking). On top of that, the types of business models just vary really widely and so building a tool that works or a large % is pretty difficult.
Wish I had better news for you!
Thanks for the reply, that makes sense to me. I always figured I'd need to implement my own since my needs will be different than others. I suppose my connected users can use baremetrics on their stripe accounts anyways!
What strategies and tactics did you use to grow the lifetime customers value?
Growing LTV is ultimately a function of churn, so if you can reduce churn, you increase LTV.
We've written quite a bit about reducing churn:
https://baremetrics.com/academy/reduce-churn-retain-customers
https://baremetrics.com/academy/saas-churn
https://baremetrics.com/blog/how-we-reduced-churn
Ultimately comes down to "increase the value you're providing to customers".
Hey Josh,
Can you name your first customer?
How did your selling process go?
Happy easter!
CircleCI! And they were a $250/mo customer. 🙂
Our selling process then was basically just word of mouth and then self-serve. Not much of a "process".
Thanks for doing this AMA, Josh. What tools (if any) did you use for leads generation/customer acquisition?
We don't use any lead gen tools!
How did you convince companies to give out such critical info?
Didn't do any convincing. Almost all of them approached me asking to make their data public.
Hey Josh!
What was it like at the very beginning, going from having an idea to actually implementing it? I have ideas that might work, but no idea if they're worth investing time/money into, and some of them have quite a few existing competitors. So how did you start?
The only real solution is to actually invest the time and build something.
Money is the only validator. The key is to pinpoint the problem you're solving and build the solution as quickly as possible. Then you start selling it and see what happens.
How many employees do you have?
How much equity have you given up since you took $800k investment?
Have you taken any follow up investment?
You talk a lot in your interview about how you weren’t monitoring your burn rate and almost ran out of money as a company. ... any thoughts of turning that into a feature? Like an automated email saying “hey you only have x weeks of money left”
Employees: 7
Equity: Presently 0% (it's a SAFE, so only gets exercised in the event of an acquisition or major funding round). Functionally ~8%. It was $800k with a $10M cap.
No follow up investment.
As for burn rate feature, could be cool! We don't do anything with expenses at the moment (from a product perspective) and we're trying to stay out of the world of accounting as much as possible. We also are operating profitably now, so our runway is infinite. :)
What does equity look like for employees, if it's given at all?
What does internal transparency look like?
I like the idea of being profitable from day 0, but it seems untenable for lots of ideas, particularly ones which require expensive compute resources (like analytics).
So I'm really curious what it's like to run a company where it's not heavily influenced by investors and employees don't have incentives alternative to "it's a great place to work".
What was the biggest risk you took while doing Baremetrics and how did it play out in reality?
Hiring way ahead of what our revenue could cover. We nearly ran out of money: https://baremetrics.com/blog/how-we-went-from-weeks-of-cash-left-in-the-bank-to-profitable-in-8-months
But we made up the difference and are profitable now.
Really interesting datapoint. I'm a free spirit too and my wife is the nerd. I have long suspected that that could be dangerous for me, so thanks for sharing that story. Getting that CFO nerd type to get your money right and having the courage to do the right thing saved the day but it could have easily ended in disaster. I think self awareness plays an unbelievablely big part in success because you simply can't be the right person for every job and you need to delagate some things but what those some things are are highly specific to the individual. Again thanks for taking the time to share that.
I've followed Baremetrics from the start. It's been fun watching your business do so well. Great job!
I'm interested in how you manage yourself - emotionally. Building a business is hard, and it seems like you've gone through many ups and downs whilst building your company.
How have you handled these ups and downs? Are there instances where you've handled them particularly well - or badly? What did these situations look like?
Now that you're not a new kid on the internet block anymore ;), what have you learned about staying emotionally healthy and sane as an entrepreneur?
Thanks for the kind words and for following along!
Biggest tips on staying emotionally healthy...
Exercise. Seriously, this is huge and absolutely crucial. Running is my exercise method of choice, but anything that makes you push yourself.
Have friends that are not in the world of startups/business. You need external influences that get your mind off of building a business.
Take a week off every few months at least to give your brain a break. It needs a hard rest regularly so you can come back with fresh perspective.
Cheers Josh! Appreciate the helpful reply. I particularly like #3...that's something I think I need to embrace.
Hi Josh. I follow you on Twitter, and i like how you share the kind of problems that you face as a business owner, annoyances etc. Your cold email tweets mKe me cringe, hard.
My question -> what would your advice be for people to reach out to you, or your team to ask about the kind of problems that you would be interested in solving. Is that something that would ever be appropriate, and if so what would your advice be for how to do that in a way that is respectful?
It's a hard call. For me, random emails trying to propose random solutions to problems the person isn't even sure I've got just doesn't work.
I don't have that many business problems I need solved at this point and if I do, I'll go ask another founder for recommendations or Google it.
For me, email just isn't the right channel for cold sales.
Thank you for the AMA!
If you have accepted VC capital:
Roughly how many customers or MRR did you have at the time of accepting said capital?
What were the immediate needs that led to accepting VC capital? (As opposed to experimenting with bootstrapping for another X time duration?)
If not:
At the time we closed our round we were doing ~$20k in MRR. However, I wasn't looking for funding. I was perfectly happy bootstrapping.
Stripe approached us initially offering the investment and the initial terms were too good to pass up ($500k at a $10M cap).
Awesome, thank you for your transparency!
Thank you for your post. I have yet something else cool to read for my quest for adding Elevator Pricing Transparency. Need all the help I can get.
Where there any "struggles" while starting out? And if you had any, what was the most important thing you, or others did to solve them.
Building a company is one constant stream of "struggle". 😛
Every day there's something different and each of those requires a different solution.
Great to have you Josh, I especially loved your writing on how hard entrepreneurship can be as it really resonated with my own downtimes... Can you elaborate how you deal with bad times psychologically? Does work-life balance exist?
Thanks for the kind words! Just answered a question about how I stay emotionally sane: https://www.indiehackers.com/forum/64316a423d?commentId=-L9GXbXNWStfELCr4Adt
Hi Josh!!!
I want to ask you:
Your data source is PayPal/Stripe in some point in the time. You create features what Paypal/Stripe not had. (right now you had a lot of features outsite from p/s). you and your team had some plan todo if P/S release the same features you had. (with that your Project will die)
¿ how preparare to that ?
I just love your transparency. Having a revenue dashboard available to the public is a bold choice for a modern company, and I am a big fan. :) No question... Just keep it up!
Hey Josh, thanks for the AMA!
When you figured out your pricing did you have problems finding the right type of customer for each plan?
In the begining resources are scarce and early customer might ask for new features...how did you handle implementing new things vs letting customers "out grow your product"?
Cheers!
I don't think we've figured out pricing...we're still regularly testing that and will be testing it forever. :) Every pricing method has problems...it'll work for some customer but not others. So you just have to keep testing it until you find it works for more customers than the previous method.
As for not letting customers dictate what you build...a lot of that is gut instinct. But generally I felt strongly from the start that building any singular feature for a customer was a bad move. There were already too many things I knew we needed to build for lots of customers and so taking time away form that to keep one customer never made sense to me.
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This comment was deleted 6 months ago.