What do you think?
What are ways that we can build distribution, and not just an audience?
An email list (not tied to your personal name) feels like the obvious one.
But isn't this really just building an audience for the product, instead of a personal one? 🤔
And coming to think of it, this is what I did for Ministry of Testing. I didn't want to build a brand around me, I put all the effort into growing the business. The community, the emails, the events, everything was about creating distribution, or an 'audience for the company'.
Lots of people in the comments seem to be completely misunderstanding what I am saying, so here's my attempt at a clarification.
There is a lot of advice online to "build an audience, build an audience, build an audience", and it's good advice. What's important to understand though is why it's valuable to have an audience, and that's because for your product to succeed people need to be able to find out about it.
So building an audience is never done for the sake of building an audience, it's done as a means of building a distribution channel. Having thousands of people pay attention to what you say is a great way to make sure thousands of people know your product exists and can find it.
When you understand that that is the real reason you need an audience, it's interesting to ask the question "is that the only way people can find out about my product, or are there other channels?"
My tweet is me just talking about how our most effective distribution channel is shifting from being my personal audience of people who are fans of what I do and what I have to say, to people who visit the Tailwind CSS documentation and click the "components" link and discover our products. A huge amount of Tailwind users have no idea who the fuck I am and don't care. The Tailwind CSS website is 60% of our traffic, with the rest of it being primarily from Google.
Owning the Tailwind CSS website which sees millions of visits per month is now our biggest advantage, not me having 75k followers on Twitter or 80k people on a mailing list. I would rather own this website and have zero Twitter followers than the reverse, because the distribution afforded to us through the website is more effective than the distribution afforded to us through my direct personal audience.
A personal audience is an awesome distribution channel, but it's not the only one, and it's important to not lose sight of the reason that an audience is valuable so you don't mistakenly invest time and effort into it that would be better poured into a better distribution channel should you be so lucky to find one like we have.
Totally agree.
Let me offer another benefit of an audience though: it's not just about helping people find your current products, but also about your future products that you haven't even thought about yet. An audience offers both downside protection and increased opportunity.
Consider Basecamp. It was initially distributed through the Signal v Noise audience. Nowadays it almost certainly has better distribution channels, just like you have for Tailwind UI. Jason & DHH's audience probably has a negligible impact on Basecamp's (the product) business today.
Then consider Hey. If Jason & DHH didn't manage to keep their audience interested in them for the last 15 years, Hey would almost certainly not have been viable. It could only exist because it was them behind it, and because of what they said/did in public over the last 15 years. If it was the same exact product built by some other random company, it's extremely unlikely I would have moved away from Gmail. Their audience made Hey a viable option before the idea of Hey even crossed their minds.
It's true that keeping an audience interested in you for 15 years comes with some burden and some nuisances (haters, noise, etc), but I hope I'll be able to mitigate the negatives and keep doing it forever, even if I find better distribution for whatever I'm doing at the moment. The future is uncertain, and having increased optionality is nice for peace of mind and to prevail in an uncertain world.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to clarify what you meant! Still, I would argue that an audience is not a distribution channel, unless your personal audience is the one that carries the product to someone else (for instance, referral programs, word of mouth, etc.). An audience just makes it easier to validate ideas and to find the first customer. You could also pay for ads and have a similar effect.
You developed a great product, which was always (I believe) distributed through a website, and the audience you built could overlap with the customers of your product, which probably gave you the initial push. But unless you keep releasing new things à-la info-product guys, those customers are quickly depleted, as you noted in the tweets.
Therefore, the idea of "building an audience" must be explored deeper than what the 3 words mean. It is not referring to having followers in Twitter per-se, it is referring to the idea of validating a market. Dropbox validated the market by having an audience, they grabbed people's attention with their value proposition. Probably you did the same with Tailwind and its newsletter. Following you on Twitter does not mean anything regarding my interest or not for Tailwind.
As an example, @dvassallo, built an audience around himself, but not around userbase (the majority of what he writes about is not related to his product). Perhaps there's a bit of overlap between customers and his audience, but probably it's not the most efficient way of validating a market for this product.
Talking about distribution, I wonder if you ever explored other options besides your website. For example, you could distribute Tailwind by creating Wordpress templates, or template builders, or use it as a baser for desktop apps built with electron, etc.
This is crazy. He's taking 2 vague terms, "distribution" and "audience" and comparing them. Show this message to 100 different people and they'll understand it in 100 different ways, because their definition of "distribution" and "audience" is different.
I've been doing research/analysis on this extensively (for Zero to Users) and the way I understand "distribution" is = getting on the radar of an EXTERNAL audience (eg. people on a Reddit sub/FB group not familiar with your product)
By "audience", he probably means an internal audience (people ALREADY familiar with you).
So the question then becomes: Should you focus on:
a) Distributing your product to an "external" audience?
b) Marketing it to an "internal" audience?
If you look at it from this perspective, then it makes sense to focus more on distribution (say 70%) and then on an audience (say 30%).
FWIW, I bit and downloaded your Zero to Users report, it was great info! Thanks for putting that together.
Thanks man!
Now I can't wait for your next weekly note: "distribution channel #7: grow an audience by making vague twitter statements". 😅
haha, never!
This.
Distribution = SEO, FB Ads or any other channel that drives new people to your product or content.
Audience = people who already know you and are on your email list or follow you on social.
I've read the thread from Adam, and I agree. I think vague is what twitter loves, you say something that seems to convey a profound meaning, and if you don't really get it, you just retweet, because it makes you look good.
Jokes aside, by distribution he actually means the website he built and the great documentation:
Basically what he is saying is that today, the product is greater and reaches more people that himself. He may have an audience of X on his Twitter, but Tailwind reaches Y>X customers.
To be honest, I am not sure how to feel about this. Digital Ocean, for example, uses guides to do things as content marketing. Is that distribution? The fact that digital assets such as tailwind have a ~zero marginal cost, makes me wonder if it is fair to talk about distribution when you only have a website and a paywall.
If Tailwind would struck a deal with Wordpress (just as an example) so their base templates are built on Tailwind, that would be a whole new discussion.
Not sure if you can call the Tailwind documentation a dist. channel though. That's a content piece and the users prob arrive from things like Github/Google search/WOM.
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The problem with Adam's tweet which is causing much confusion here, is that there is a 3rd term missing here which is "marketing channel." And I think Adam is conflating marketing and distribution, which is very common. I even did so myself in my response to @8bit earlier.
A distribution channel is a mechanism by which you get your product into the hands of customers. Retail stores, selling on Amazon, Gumroad checkout, your website checkout with Stripe, your Shopify site, the iOS/Android app stores... these are distribution channels.
A marketing channel (or strategy) is a mechanism by which you get your product in front of customers, both in terms of building awareness and also getting customers to the point of distribution (purchase). SEO, PPC/paid advertising, ASO, email marketing, social media, affiliate marketing, word-of-mouth... these are marketing channels (or strategies).
Conflating marketing and distribution is common because sometimes platforms do both. If you sell on Amazon, you're marketing on Amazon (generally through keyword search rank optimization, but maybe also Amazon ads), and also distributing on Amazon through their checkout.
By these definitions, audience-building is a form of marketing, not distribution. Adam's audience on Twitter spreads awareness of Tailwind. His distribution channel is purchasing on his website.
So when Adam says that marketing+distribution is a greater lever than having an audience, that's obviously true since audience-building is a subset of marketing.
But what he really means by this is less obvious, and it's something that Rob Walling has talked a lot about in his podcast Startups for the Rest of Us. In Rob's experience (of which he has a lot), the limitation of audience building is that your audience is finite. It will provide a one-time boost of revenue, but then be exhausted and you will have to find recurring and ongoing sources of customers outside your audience to keep growing... in other words, you will have to find other sustainable marketing and distribution channels.
Mostly agree with this statement.
Adam said "distribution" not "distribution channel". He more likely meant exposure, which is a macro term I use when it comes growing personal/brand/product (i.e. an entity) awareness.
Exposure encompasses everything an entity does to allow individuals or businesses to find it. Advertising, Marketing, SEO, Distribution (online & physical retail), ASO, etc.
PPC, Affiliate, Social Media, Audience/WOM are all subsets of Advertising & Marketing. SEO is also a subset because it's used for both Advertising & Marketing purposes, but it's large enough to stand on its own now.
As you rightly pointed out, an audience is just one component of exposure.
Audiences become what they are because they want to learn or experience something from the entity they are following.
Audiences serve two primary purposes for an entity:
For some entities (like being an online YT/IG/TikTok influencer), an audience is all you may need since you're generating your income mostly with brand deals.
For other entities, an audience's reach is finite and limiting.
Of course if you're one of those rare entities that isn't trying to sell anything, and just trying to make the planet a better place, an audience is of great value.
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Btw, it would be an interesting exercise to identify all the macro components of exposure, and all of their subset components.
I agree with your points. I've never heard the term "exposure" used in this context, but it sounds good to me.
Nice overview, Steve. Wonder what category would you put an "acquisition" channel in?
Btw, I usually do a Google search when I'm trying to understand how most people usually distinguish terms. For example, if you Google "acquisition" and "marketing" channels, you get a similar results. Not the same with "distribution" channels though.
Yeah, I think your research is right. I'd probably say that when most people say "acquisition" channel, they usually mean marketing channel (e.g. SEO, PPC). In the digital age, the marketing channel is usually more valuable and interesting than the distribution channel.
If you want to be technical, then I guess acquisition means both marketing and distribution combined because you technically can't acquire a customer until you get the product into their hands. But honestly, the semantics don't matter that much as long as you get the customer!
I think the distinction between marketing and distribution was more important before the Internet when distribution played a larger role in business. The bulk of consumer sales happened in retail chain stores (e.g. product placement in stores like Walmart, Target), company-owned retail stores (e.g. in shopping centers, malls, retail districts), and direct-to-consumer channels (e.g. catalog, telemarketing, QVC/TV). But again, the terms here were often conflated because DTC channels like a catalog are more marketing than distribution – the actual point of sale was mail-ordering or phone call (before the Internet), and fulfillment was done by a warehouse. In fact, using all these marketing/distribution channels was often simply called "multichannel marketing" not "multichannel marketing and distribution."
I see. Is it safe to assume that a distribution channel is about WHERE people are getting your product, whereas a marketing/acquisition channel is about them FINDING OUT about the product in the first place?
Also curious if retail shelves are a marketing channel as well (there are prob. some stats on this). Pretty sure a decent % of people buy products on-the-spot, the moment they see a ketchup on a shelf, for example.
Yes, I think that's a good way to put it. Distribution is where. Marketing is discovery, awareness, finding.
I think you could definitely consider retail shelving as marketing. Often, a retail store will have displays/fixtures/banners for products that are obviously marketing. But in general, retail is so close to point-of-sale that most people just say retail store = distribution for simplicity. But I think the lines are blurred, and trying to get too precise isn't that helpful. In fact, the more interesting thing to me is how marketing and distribution channels can intersect, overlap and compliment each other.
Great response. Very clear.
In Adams case, for Tailwind he has a lot of people (web dev influencers), companies (Vercel, Netlify, egghead, etc), projects(Next.js, Vue.js ...) pointing to Tailwind. To which, I believe he is classifying as distribution. These will give a lot more leverage than is personal audience.
👍
Yes, I think Adam's work with Tailwind is an amazing case study of how to start with a personal audience, and then how to grow past that audience into other marketing/distribution channels in order to build a company and brand that stands on its own (i.e. not exclusively tied to/dependant on Adam as a person).
Very clear observation, and I completely agree!
Glad I could contribute!
this is clearer — thanks! 🙌🏻
The more I think about it, I would add that "audience building" is not really a marketing channel per se, but rather a strategy that uses marketing channels to communicate (by teaching, informing, or entertaining) to a group of people to gain a following. The audience awaits and anticipates future communications, usually by following/subscribing/joining/signing-up etc.
Marketing channels like Twitter, YouTube, or email can be used for audience building, but not necessarily so. If I use email simply for onboarding, transactional notices, sales and promotions, I'm not likely to build an audience that way. But if I use it for educational content, then that's audience-building.
Perspective from @robwalling:
... so, is he advocating quitting before starting if you want to build your own SaaS?
... i don't believe he's saying that, right?
I've heard him talk about it in various podcasts. In his experience both as a founder and also seeing a lot of indiehacker businesses, having an audience is very helpful for info products, generally because there is high overlap between the info you give to audience for free, and the info that you sell as a product.
But for saas products, the overlap between an audience and a saas product is low. Having an audience helps, but just a little. When he launched Drip, he got a boost from his audience (Startups for the Rest of Us, Microconf) but it quickly tapped out and had to find customers elsewhere. He would argue that there are better ways to directly grow your saas rather than spending that time audience-building.
Nailed it! Thanks for clarifying for me, @stevenkkim 😀
👍
Why couldn't this also be true for a SaaS?
I think the purchase bar is just higher for saas. With info products, there's going to already be a conversion drop-off from audience to customer because most people aren't willing to pay anything – they're only interested in free. Then saas is going to be an even further drop-off because 1) people may not want the implemented saas solution, and 2) subscribing to saas is generally perceived as more of a commitment than a one-time info product purchase.
Thanks Steven 🙏 I think you're spot on for much of that...but this is more about which format (to solve a problem) converts better.
Curious to me is the thinking behind why there is a high overlap selling to an audience with an info product whereas for a piece of software, there is not.
Chris, as I think about this more, "overlap" isn't the right word.
I think you can definitely have high overlap between an audience and a saas product. On the flip side, you can also create an info product that is totally irrelevant to your audience (therefore no overlap).
I think what I really mean is "conversion rate". The conversion rate from audience to saas subscriptions is far lower than the conversion rate from audience to info product (for the two reasons I mentioned above).
Thanks for challenging me on this, and hope this is clearer.
Thanks Steven 💪this statement falls more inline with what I've come to know and clearly understand.
That being said, curious then why the thought is that audiences yield low returns when selling a piece of software?
If this is all truly about conversion numbers - and not a broken approach - then you have a knob to turn and tune which can open the opportunities.
One last reply – here's how I would think about conversion rates in your band example: the band builds an audience. what's the conversion rate from audience to buying an album? to buying a concert ticket? to buying an annual band insider's club membership (i.e. subscription)? I would venture to guess that the conversion rates here are listed from high to low (obviously at different price points).
One last example: I'm working on a productivity app. Say I build an audience on twitter or youtube teaching people how to be productive. what's the conversion rate from audience to buying a $10 e-book on productivity? what about buying a $50 video course on productivity with 10 hours of content? what about paying $10/month for a saas task management app?
Again, I'm not saying subscriptions won't work with audiences, but my gut is that the conversion rates are going to be much lower.
Thanks for the good conversation, it was fun. Good luck with your projects!
hmmm... appreciate the convo and perspective 🙏 but i can't get behind that thinking. Not that it's wrong, it just differs from my own first hand observations as well the copious readings I find from others:
"In 2011 I started my blog...to write about software design and development....A year later that turned into a great living from selling ebooks and courses on design...earning over $250,000 a year blogging and teaching design...From the blog I built ConvertKit, an email marketing software company [SaaS] for creators, that now earns $24 million in annual revenue and is valued at over $100 million and counting...It required a ton of time, persistence...but I was able to also turn an audience into a business with massive upside...In my own quest to build a billion dollar company I’ve studied dozens of creators who have made this transition...For those who are just getting started, the most important thing to understand is that an audience is key. If you’re looking for step one on this massive journey it’s to get good at building an audience."
https://nathanbarry.com/billion/
🙂🙌
I don't have any hard conversion rate numbers to back up these claims, so I don't think I'm qualified to answer your question. Obviously, there are a lot of saas businesses that have built an audience and done well, though it's hard to say how much of their success is attributed to audience building.
I think Rob Walling's advice is not "if you're saas don't build an audience" but rather, "if you're saas, an audience helps. But if you don't have an audience, don't build an audience first then build your saas next. there are more direct ways to get saas customers than building an audience."
I'm currently building my first saas and I plan on using content marketing as my primary customer acquisition channel. But my content will focus on the product/solution/company and not on me, so I'm not sure if that is technically "audience building"... there's certainly a lot of overlap between audience building and content marketing.
It would be hard to buy into the idea that building an audience is restricted to only an individual and not a business or any other entity.
It's not how the real world works...just one of many, many examples:
A live band builds what's literally called an audience (and in most cases drilled down to a smaller subset called "fans"), and that audience pays to see the live shows, or obtain their merch.
I'm still puzzled by some of the thinking I see riddled throughout this post.
At any rate...thanks for the conversation Steven 😎 Best wishes on your SaaS!
good summary. thanks bro! miss hanging, btw. we need to catch up.
Yeah, definitely. I'll shoot you an email.
I hope this podcast I did with @adamwathan where we discuss this helps to clear a few things up!
here is a podcast about this topic https://twitter.com/justinvincent/status/1339113949074079745
Here's a great thread on distribution from a SaaS owner I really respect:
https://mobile.twitter.com/earthlingworks/status/1338243389490270209
What's the difference between audience-building and distribution?
Feel similar. I think the difference is one has conversion baked in. You can't always add "conversion" later.
Simple example:
Both blog posts. Both marketing. Only one is deliberate distribution.
distribution is a function of audience... without audience, who'd you distribute it to exactly? in manufacturing, they are inextricably-tied, for profit (margins) of course.
on the web... this relationship is harder to devise and discern, as, you can shout into the void and no one may hear it.
community > everything... it's more important than both audience and distribution.
i'd also argue that @adamwathan's tweet above conflates corporate distro and personal distro... the same function applies regardless of how you separate or bifurcate those two... does it matter if it was "personal" or "corp" if the (biz) outcome is the same?
just asking questions in order to understand.
Yeah, I'm not sure I understand it myself. What is a distribution channel worth if there isn't an audience on the other end?
It's like working out a way to get your product into brick and mortar stores and then once it gets there they keep it in the back room because they don't want to take up shelf space since they don't think anybody wants it.
Also, is the idea that distribution is way easier to get going than building an audience? I'm lost.
sometimes i feel as if folks spout stuff like this to sound intelligent. i'm not accusing adam of that here, but, when you make it hard to understand what you're saying... for average folks... that's a disservice.
again, not a knock here... but... this has been a whole lot of nothing-burger for me. lol.
¯\(ツ)/¯
well, maybe it was good thought experiment.
I'm with you. This is one of the reasons I stopped using Twitter. It's a place where people make empty proclamations like this and get a lot of retweets and engagement, but if you go deeper, you find there's no 'there' there.
🤔🤣
Audience is a type of distribution where a group of people want to listen to you. Some members of the audience may turn into customers.
Distribution in general is the ability to reach customers. This can include SEO, paid advertising, placement in app stores, affiliate marketing, etc. ... the people you reach through these channels may be in your audience, or they may be complete strangers who are finding your company for the first time.
i don't know if that's entirely true either... or, rather, it's unclear.
audience... but who's?
people intentionally "hijack" and do "takeovers" of other folks' social accounts to cross-promote and effectively "borrow" one another's audiences... whether those audiences want it or not.
so, for me, audience is not distribution.
I think distribution is just another word for sales channel. So to me, if you build an audience and sell to it, that's distribution. If you hijack some else's audience and sell to it, that's distribution.
If you start a blog and gain a following, but never sell anything to that audience, that's not distribution.
Maybe I have the wrong definitions, or maybe it's just semantics, but that's the way I think about it.
If I'm a customer looking for a game to play in the iOS app store, that's a distribution channel. I wouldn't call it an audience, I'm not listening to or waiting for the app store to tell me anything. But if I like a game and I start following the game developer on Twitter or their blog, then I'm in their audience.
Hope that clarifies?
i like the specific examples. this is sufficient. thanks, yo.
I gave it some more thought and posted a clearer answer below...
word.
For me, distribution is more related to acquisition, a way that users can find what you do. For example Content Marketing, SEO, referrals, platform(Mobile, Web, etc)... things that show your company to new users that didn't know you before.
Audience is more related to engagement, people that deliberately follow you because they like what you do(social media, newsletter, etc), and thus are more likely to convert. Ideally, you should use your distribution channels to grow your audience.
But it really depends on the product, some products don’t need an audience at all; for example, imagine a SaaS that solves a specific problem and has clear value prepositions. Clients can see how the product can solve their pain without needing any content from the company.
Other products, though, are harder to convert users without an audience, things like courses, books… generally things that rely a lot on social proof.
That’s my thoughts, what do you think?
I feel like an audience is a group of people who believe in your product and will do something (like evangelize for you, or sign up). As opposed to a (marketing) distribution channel, which is a bit more passive. But a distribution channel is definitely important for building an audience.
To me, there are different levels of a business and the approach changes as you traverse through those levels.
At his level now, to his point, people don't care about him so much as they care about the solution.
But in the beginning, it's about him creating a solution. That's the story. His fight to build a better mouse trap. Putting it out into the world. It becoming successful. That's the narrative.
@rosiesherry just look at the title of this post, you added his name, not his product. Why?
If you came to know about tailwind just today, and if you were not an indiehacker, then you may not know nor care who the person is behind it. It's a popular solution (now) that people recommend. You're looking to solve a problem and this looks like the fix.
I added his name because I know of him, and his story and know other people here would. Also, the idea of the post came from his personal tweet.
And partly I pointed it out to show people that you don't have to have a personal audience to build a business. I didn't really have one with mine, which is what I hinted at. And as my previous company grew, yes the community helped, but the people who were (mostly) buying were/are big companies who would want to see an 'established looking business' to be able to spend their money.
Yea...exactly my point.
Yea...and I think that's the hard part to grok. It's not that an "audience" is the wrong approach (which seems to be the theme of this thread), it's that it doesn't have to be attached to your personal name, it could be built around a business.
@rosiesherry you didn't have any audience? Or you didn't have an "personal" audience (e.g. centered around you as an individual)? I'm assuming the latter...
EDIT: just noticed this in the original post: "everything was about creating distribution, or an 'audience for the company'." 😏
I wish the differences between both were better defined. My understanding of a distribution channel is a platform where you can find and grow an audience (email, social media, Indie Hackers for example). And while one can infinitely scale distribution channels, it's not best practice to create multiple channels without a plan for building an audience.
I would actually recommend limiting distribution channels, focusing on a small few, and strategizing to grow one's audience on those channels.
The term "audience" is so often reduced to mean "following," as Adam uses it here. In that case, he's absolutely right. A group of people paying attention isn't enough to build meaningful business relationships.
For that, you need two things: they need to have an ongoing problem for you to solve, and you need to find a way for them to find it.
Both can happen after and while you are "building (for) your audience."
Insight into the problems of a group of people is easiest when you're right in the middle. Becoming a part of their communities and communication portals will allow you to listen to your audience. You'll find key pain points and problems that you can set out to solve.
Without an audience, you will have a hard time exploring those fundamental requirements for a successful business.
Being able to reach prospective customers — that's what I assume is meant by "distribution" — is much easier when you have their attention. Selling into the void isn't fun or profitable. Having an email list or a podcast audience makes this much more convenient.
It also is important to consider that a personal audience is something that is best leveraged for small businesses who operate in niche industries. The more tribal your industry, the more effective it will be to become part of their communities.
Love this.
To people who are mixing up the two terms, I think it becomes clear when you clearly define what "distribution" and "audience" is.
Here's how I define them.
Distribution is basically any pathway to your target customer, i.e. someone who is likely to use your product/offering.
Audience is a group of people who know about you/your product and actively engage with your content. They may or may not be your target customer.
Hope this helps clear someone's confusion!
I've been pondering about similar thing recently, wherever I look, people say "developer community", but I feel bothered about that because I don't feel like it's about the community. You can sell your product to people who don't participate in the community. The parallel to this post, is that offline customers are your distribution, whereas audience, is online communities. What happens most of the time, is that people assume that Software Sales is about getting out there on Reddit and HN and talking to people there, as if their community is what is known as "developer community" and without them the industry doesn't exist. And that's not a light assumption, this POV is taken by many unexperienced people who literally use the words "developer community" as if the community is the whole grail. That pushes my gits because there are many-many professional Software Engineers with families and commitments to culture, that are just not on the internet. Those online communities cannot be compared to the realness of the outside world. You can sell to the world with traditional methods, like marketing, advertisement, sell to enterprise and make millions, all without a twitter account. And it's much more real that putting your content on reddit for people who basically come to procrastinate. Distribution is king.
Great post! I see an audience as folks interested or potentially interested in your product or service offering, and you reach them via distribution. Distribution is key to growth, and is as important as the product (if not more) during the 0 to 1 phase, and especially during the growth phase of a startup. Validating a need against an audience is key to finding a market for the product.
Distribution can take many forms, from top of funnel awareness and acquisition in different paid and organic channels, through how you leverage partners, to how you might work with influencers, to how you may build growth loops and funnels via your product led growth efforts.
The product provides value to an audience which is found via distribution. That's how I'd view this.
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lol.
not entirely the same thing, but, funny.
i think good community leaders use their personal audiences for other people. so, +1 to the idea.
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you're my kind of guy.