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13 Comments

Ask IH: Competitor stole my data. What should I do?

https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-a-full-list-of-Shopify-stores

Update

The offending site is now offline. I filed several DMCA takedown notices with their service providers and have been in direct contact with the individuals involved, including finding their real-life identifies. They agreed to take down the offending site. I decided to mask their personal information in this post. I'm probably being too lenient in doing so but, even though they did something really stupid, I don't want to permanently mess up their employment prospects. That said, I have to confess to feelings of regret for being so lenient since they got off with less consequences than they deserve. The next time this happens, I'll be far better equipped to respond and I'll be much less likely to be lenient.

TL;DR

A competitor has blatantly stolen my data and started reselling it. Help me decide what to do about it.

Background

I first came across Ecomidata on Quora when I was thinking about building Store Leads. In February 2018, they claimed that Shopify had 330k live stores. At the time, Shopify had well over 700k live stores. I didn’t know where they were sourcing their data but the quality was clearly poor.

(Note: the Quora link is now dead. I sent a copyright infringement notice to Quora and they decided to ban the account and remove all content.)

I launched Store Leads in November 2019 and, shortly thereafter, the Ecomidata site went blank. They left a shell of a marketing site powered by Wordpress, complete with a “START FREE TRIAL” button that did nothing. The link for that button was simply “javascript:void()” which, to those less technical, means do nothing. Ecomidata stayed that way for about 7 months. I would occasionally check their site along with the sites of other competitors.

Then suddenly, in late June 2019, there were signs of life. They posted a message stating that the new Ecomidata would be launched on July 1st. They slipped that scheduled by a couple days, but launched their new site on Sunday July 6th. The new site offered free access to the top 1000 Shopify domains.

The Shock

Imagine my surprise when I created a free account on Ecomidata only to be greeted by an exact copy of Store Leads data.

How did it happen? Store Leads offers a feature that allows users to export data via CSV. Ecomidata has clearly just taken that CSV and started reselling it as if it was their own.

It should be clear to anybody who spends 5 minutes on each site that the data is identical. They list their domains in the exact same order as Store Leads and the data provided is identical. It should also be clear that I’ve spent a lot more time on user experience with a custom site built entirely from scratch. They’ve cobbled something together using a Wordpress template, fake user reviews, outsourced user management to memberful, etc. This is a clear hack job. They stole my most valuable asset (data) and are passing it off as their own.

The Culprits

Person of Interest #1: PERSON A (name redacted)
If you search for Ecomidata on Google, you’ll find that there are only 2 “people” promoting Ecomidata. One is an individual on Quora who goes by the name “**** *******”. He links to Ecomidata in several answers on Quora.

At first, he used terminology that suggested he was not connected to Ecomidata. In his early posts, he states that he “found” Ecomidata to be the best solution in the space. But after the site came back online after 7 months, he posted “Website is working fine” on the exact same day that they relaunched. Clearly this individual is running the site.

I strongly suspect that PERSONA A is an alias since I can’t find any other references to this person online. That, coupled with the fact that he misrepresented his affiliation with the site, seems to be a clear violation of Quora’s Real Name Policy.

Person of Interest #2: PERSON B
The second individual linked to Ecomidata is “** ****”, who reviewed the site on his blog. It’s quite possible that he is not directly affiliated with Ecomidata and that he just links to the site in exchange for affiliate revenue.

But this is where it gets interesting. On May 3rd 2019, when Ecomidata had already been offline for several months, PERSON B emails me asking if I have an affiliate program for Store Leads. He suggested a 40-50% revenue share, which is far too generous by industry standards. I suspected that he was connected to Ecomidata and, since their marketing site implied their would relaunch soon, I was wary. I never answered the email and it sunk to the bottom of my inbox.

But on June 24th, 2019, PERSON B becomes a paying user of Store Leads. Over the next 12 days, he uses his account to export data on 23 separate occasions. There was a flurry of exports done on July 6th, the exact same day that PERSON A announced that the new version of Ecomidata was live.

That’s a mighty big coincidence. But there’s more.

  • Ecomidata’s terms of service state that they follow the local consumer laws in Australia. According to Stripe, the payment that PERSON B made to Store Leads came from a device in Australia.
  • Ecomidata.com is a WordPress site hosted on lightningbase.com. And it just so happens that PERSON B' blog is also hosted on lightningbase.com (and he wrote a review of it)

To summarize, there are only 2 individuals that are linked to Ecomidata online. They have geographical, temporal and technological overlap. It’s hard not to assume that PERSON B is either working directly with PERSON A or is, in fact, the same person. PERSON B does not provide his full name and neither individual uses a real photo, which makes things even more suspicious.

What can I do?
My terms of service forbid reselling the data but these are clearly people that don’t care about respecting terms of service.

The stolen data is a mix of public facts (e.g., urls, company names) and derived data (e.g., estimated monthly app spend, industry categories). The derived data is based on algorithms (that I wrote) which take public facts as inputs.

I don’t think the public facts can be copyrighted but I suspect there’s something I can do to protect the derived data. As a next step, I intend to determine if the algorithms can be patented (though, in general, I’m not a huge fan of patents) and if the derived data can be protected. If so, then I suspect that I can send them a DMCA takedown.

But that sounds like a lot of effort, and could be costly if I engage a lawyer. I’d much rather spend the time and energy on my product.

What should I do?
It’s not clear to me exactly how to proceed and I’d love your advice. Here are some options:

  • Lawyer up and go the DMCA route. With a DMCA takedown order, I could approach their hosting company and their registrar and have their site taken offline. I suspect this will be expensive and slow, leaving them to profit from their theft in the meantime.
  • Downvote all Quora answers linking to Ecomidata along with a link to this post. Quora seems to be their primary marketing channel. They are ranked highly on a few influential posts. I could also approach Quora support with my complaint but I suspect they’d need a DMCA takedown order to act.
  • Reach out directly to the individuals involved with a link to this post. My concern is that this will just cause them to start covering their tracks.
  • Inject incorrect data into future CSV exports done by PERSON B so that, if they don’t notice, their site is full of embarrassingly wrong content.

I would love to hear from anyone who has experience in this area or has been through a similar experience. It’s gut wrenching to pour your heart and soul into a product only to have it stolen by unscrupulous people.

submitted this linkon July 8, 2019
  1. 7

    I have had a few inventions stolen..believe me when I say...I know how it hurts

    Set a canary trap....inject recognizeable incorrect data at several key points so that when the hosting company tech rep looks at the data...they can easily see a pattern in the breadcrumbs you have left behind .

    Then the takedown notice...Dont think you need the lawyer for that..contact the hosting company...most have tech reps that will know what your talking about and will see the pattern right away ....and take downs happen faster than you think .

    Also after the take down notice..contact stripe

    However..this WILL NOT solve your problem.

    These are copycats .

    As Steve Jobs said in 1994, “Picasso had a saying, ‘Good artists copy, great artists steal .

    " If their team is great at copying, their innovation abilities probably won’t be as good. But any improvements they make on even just a single piece of what you’ve invented will help them pull ahead. They just have to be a little faster and improve better than you. "

    " You can’t just capture the market once and expect to keep it. You have to do it over and over again and faster than everyone else if you want to keep distance from competitors coming up behind you and disrupting you. That’s how you get ahead of the market. "

    You have to out innovate these guys....AND make it so users/customers know they are blatant ripoff artist ....

    Here are my suggestions .

    The copy cats are using data from the csv files....that is their weakness , so Change how the data is presented visually to the users .

    For instance ...

    Create unique dashboards users will love
    http://hijiangtao.github.io/ss-vis-component/

    Use popout windows to highlight product images ( click on red circles )
    http://bl.ocks.org/paulovn/9686202

    Interactive charts
    http://xliberation.com/googlecharts/d3flights.html

    Give users something they have never seen before
    https://mrdoob.com/#/96/google_sphere

    Use maps
    https://observablehq.com/@d3/bubble-map

    https://observablehq.com/@d3/versor-dragging
    ( draggable map )

    Motion charts
    https://bost.ocks.org/mike/nations/

    heat maps
    https://www.prcweb.co.uk/circularheatchart

    Reinvent the business and make them obsolete

    1. 1

      Thanks @SUPERViLLAiN, these are all great suggestions.

      There's certainly significant differentiation in the way I present the data but it will only help to push further here (and will serve to attract new users too).

      I haven't contacted their hosting company yet. But since they run on WordPress, I fear this approach won't be effective - they'll just jump to one of a millon other WordPress hosts.

      Instead, I'd like to focus on their Registrar and Quora since those appear to be their most significant assets. Since they have a few entrenched Quora answers, they have a steady stream of incoming traffic and an incentive to profit from it. Without that, they have much less incentive to do it again. Quora and their Domain Registrar require a DMCA takedown notice, so I'll be looking into that next.

  2. 2

    Real talk is, if your entire business is built on top of a piece of data that's this easy to lift, you're going to be choked out by competitors really quickly. It will ultimately be a race to the bottom on price and eventually somebody is going to say "fuck this, I'm just going to liberate this data" make it entirely free and everybody ends up losing.

    @SUPERViLLAiN hit it on the head, you need to be innovating. I understand the emotional side of this (because I'm actually going through some similar situations in my space) but you absolutely have to look past it and look forward.

    You have revenue, which tells me you have customers. Talk to them, figure out what's next. If your copycat is just trying to do exactly what you're doing, they'll end up being behind every step of the way. Speed's a huge advantage here.

    And in regard to pursuing DMCA take downs and all of that. It's all a great idea, and even better if you want to spend your run way on lawyers, but as the quote goes "never wrestle with pigs, you'll get dirty, and they like it".

    1. 1

      Great advice @joshtronic. I've built some value on top of the data and there's certainly more that I can deliver in this area going forward.

      Love the quote and I'm inclined to follow that advice - but it's hard to ignore the intense urge to punish their misdeeds.

      1. 1

        I've personally been dealing with a similar situation (competitor/IHer using my exact brand name, and lifting my marketing copy about as quick as I was updating it, has copied my code libraries and re-released them for their own service, and insult to injury, pretty sure was running their service on my original open source project (which I pivoted to be a premium service) and it [sadly] ate me alive for about a month or so.

        To say "I get it" is an absolute understatement.

        But, here's what happened during that time, and why having competition, even if they are bottom feeding ass clowns, it a great fucking thing:

        • I've filed for a trademark on my brand name (who knows if it will go through, but given the circumstance, I felt the need to protect myself). They've since rebranded, so while a good thing that I'm pursuing the trademark, it isn't as important as it was at the get go.
        • I've expanded my service from offering about half of the ISO-3166 countries, to ALL OF THEM as well as expanded into supporting over 3k subdivisions, up from a few dozen
        • I've added a ton of new features, including language translation support, querying multiple countries, as well as a new feature to search by name.
        • Internally, I've been improving the hell out of our infrastructure and accuracy checks on the data. It's a constant work in progress, but I know my code from a few years back that was open sourced didn't include ANY of this.
        • I've talked to a bunch of customers. This isn't important for the communicative aspect, but because it was a reminder that even if somebody is out there using my branding, I'm still the leader in the space.
        • Constantly improved my site / marketing copy. Fortunately, even if people are copying that shit, they may actually be copying failed experiments and not the stuff that's working. If all you do is copy, you have ZERO context to what's good or bad, and for those of us being copied, it's a great thing.

        And honestly, this is barely the tip of what has been accomplished in the last few months. Instead of worrying too much about it (which I did my fair share of), I channeled my rage into a level of productivity that's been a constant point of amazement.

        All that said, I did actually engage with the pig, and they called me out for using Drift on my site (like they do) which came as a recommendation of my bud @jwd2a as that's what we were using on another startup that actually predates all of this ;). Because somehow using a tool that's used by a ton of sites is on the same level as stealing branding and marketing verbatim.

        So yeah, the pigs, don't wrestle with them ;)

        1. 1

          Sorry to hear about the lengths that your copycat went through to steal your livelihood - but it's great to hear that you've turned it into a positive. Sounds like you've done a lot of great work on your site. Is it holidayapi.com that they copied?

          1. 1

            Yeah, takes a minute to finally channel the "fuck em, ship it" mentality, but once you do, it's off to the races!

            Definitely putting in the work on it, so happy the efforts are all starting to show :)))

            And yes, that's the one... latest battle is a post here on IH "saying goodbye to holiday api...". I'm not going out of my way to engage, but I'm definitely not going to let posts that are making it seem like /my/ service is going away go without a comment reaffirming that we're here to stay.

            It's gotten to the point that they remove the post when I comment on it, then repost it... the lengths folks will go to not do the right thing.

            All they have to do is mention their service by the full URL and not word things so it seems like my service is the one going away... it's really not too much to ask!

  3. 1

    Update #2: I've been in contact with the parties and they have agreed to take down ecomidata.com. In doing so, they confirmed all the suspicions and details that I noted in this post.

    Now they want me to remove their personal names and website links from the post. Presumably because it may harm their reputation. However I'm not aware of any legal grounds for them to make this demand, especially since they have now confirmed their involvement in writing.

  4. 1

    Update: I filed a copyright infringement complaint with Quora support. They reviewed the account, determined that it violated their terms of use, then banned the account and removed all content. All within a couple hours. To say that I'm impressed by their response is an understatement.

    I've also contacted Memberful (which handles user management and payments) and will reach out to their hosting provider and registrar next. Hoping for similarly positive results.

  5. 1

    Now this is really bad! At least in Europe there's a copyright protection for databases even when a single record could not be protected, because the level of creativity isn't high enough. I think there are similar rules in the US and Canada.
    But besides of those legal questions, I think it would be good to watermark your data. I'm sure you've heard of the allegations that Google has stolen lyrics from Genius. They were able to provided a proof as they've watermarked their lyrics with a series of alternating straight and curved apostrophes. Perhaps you could come up with something similar for your data.

    1. 1

      Great suggestion @Stefan22. The watermarking approach you mention is really subtle and much less likely to be noticed that what I had in mind. Thanks!

  6. 1

    You don't need a lawyer to file a DMCA take-down notice. It's really easy on most websites.

    Read through Github's help pages (as an example) to understand the general steps:
    https://help.github.com/en/articles/guide-to-submitting-a-dmca-takedown-notice
    and
    https://github.com/contact/dmca-notice

    How much money are you willing to spend on lawyers? Pay for one to send a cease-and-desist letter. That might just do it.

    1. 1

      Thanks @hostedmetrics, I hadn't considered a good old cease and desist letter yet.