OpenAI released a "Chat with PDF" feature today, threatening to clobber the revenues of AI apps that solely provide "Chat with PDF" services. Is this going to kill my own "chat with PDF" app, bunni.ai?
Validating a need is a huge deal for founders. And this release by OpenAI has just helped reinforce validation for "AI for PDF" solutions.
I believe there’s always room for multiple experiences to every solution. Twitter had multiple Twitter clients (until, of course, that API fiasco). Likewise, ChatGPT itself has incredibly useful “wrappers.” Tony Dinh's TypingMind comes to mind (ha). I am a customer, btw. Likewise again, for the “AI for PDF” use case.
These 3rd-party apps will continue to build value in the form of highly specific features for their users that OpenAI wouldn’t build. Indie hackers have always, and will always, be providing high value to a small group of users.
Furthermore, 3rd-party apps take on the platform risk on behalf of users. We allow users to switch providers in seconds, without the need to re-upload all their PDFs. Bunni.AI will soon allow this.
Yes, execution will matter, a lot. But that’s the nature of business.
So yes, if I am complacent, OpenAI's competing feature released today will kill off my app. But, if I'm focused and execute well, I think they can co-exist.
Are you building an AI app? What do you think?
It's funny that someone would think that way. Why would OpenAI kill their biggest (API) clients?
Chat-with-PDF function is part of the GPT-4 running features. It should work with the "wrappers". Also, this is only available on the plus version ($20/month subs), so they're basically just another competitor.
The "wrappers" like any other 3rd party microSaaS existing today, are here to stay to keep on building and "hacking" the already crowded AI space.
You're right... lots of "wrappers" out there doing really well for their niche.
Maybe we should call ourselves indie wrappers, instead of indie hackers :)
Loose idea, you could add an integration with Azure OpenAi to win clients that value privacy and don’t want to/can’t share PDFs content with OpenAi
This is an excellent idea. Secure content hosting is something we're looking at but hadn't considered Azure. Thanks!
Except, OpenAI already lets enterprises host their own GPT instance.... I suppose if one were to target a smaller outfit that wants privacy but can't afford to host their own ChatGPT, that could be a segment.
I think multiple products can co-exist, but it does make it harder (will need to be much stronger in both product value created on top of what OpenAI offers and have great targeted marketing/sales).
It also makes it harder to capture a mass market because that's OpenAI's so it will likely need to be niche with specialised value. But maybe that's not a bad thing.
Agree. And btw, niche + specialised value is right up our street as indie hackers!
Oh yes, it's an interesting race. We built http://olympia.chat, and today OpenAI crashed together with all the wrappers built on Ruby including ours. It's good that we were able to recover quite fast and fix things, but it was quite unpleasant. I do not think we should give up tho, friend! :)
Been a big fan of Ruby! What happened?
Anyway, love the website and the AI team concept is very interesting.
Thank you! :) We do not know, but it's good that we are back on our feet!
Glad you're quick to be back on your feet!
And yes, giving up is the opposite of what we should be doing now. This has opened up so many more opportunities!
BTW, nice landing page!
Thanks for your kind words! Yes, not giving up! :)
In my opinion, while OpenAI's "Chat with PDF" feature may introduce competition, there is still potential for the AI "wrapper" apps to thrive by offering unique features, addressing specific user needs, and providing a seamless user experience.
Yeah, I definitely agree, especially when products are uniquely catered towards specific users. Be it, researchers, legals, financial papers.
100%. Nailing the user experience for the specific use case will help us stand apart from the generic platform offering.
Absolutely, the introduction of OpenAI's "Chat with PDF" feature might bring about some changes in the landscape, but it doesn't necessarily spell doom for apps like bunni ai Your perspective on validation and the importance of multiple experiences in a given solution is spot on.
The existence of multiple Twitter clients and the success of specialized wrappers for ChatGPT illustrate that users often value tailored experiences and features. Your emphasis on 3rd-party apps taking on platform risks and providing flexibility for users is a strong point. The ability for users to easily switch providers without friction is a significant advantage.
As you rightly mentioned, execution is key. By staying focused and continuing to enhance specific features that cater to your user base, bunni can not only coexist but also thrive in this evolving landscape. The nature of business indeed involves adapting to changes and finding ways to provide unique value.
Keep refining your approach, stay responsive to user needs, and bunni can maintain its relevance and distinctiveness in the "AI for PDF" space. It's about offering something more than a generic solution, and your commitment to allowing seamless transitions for users positions your app well in the market.
Regenerate
Instead of thinking about wrappers and features being killed off by OpenAI, I think it makes more sense to return to the basics.
Michael Porter's Five Forces is business school gospel, and for good reason--the framework helps firms figure out where they fit in a marketplace.
Let's look at two of those forces first: the threat of new entrants and the bargaining power of suppliers.
With apps that build on top of OpenAI's API, there is often little technical difficulty preventing new entrants from creating their version. Much of the code is freely available on GitHub. That means a shallow moat based on execution and user experience. It's a tricky spot to be in.
Then, there's supplier bargaining power. How much power does OpenAI have in this equation? There are other LLMs out there, but since their prompts and behavior can vary, a service built around ChatGPT exclusively might find it tough to shift to Claude or an open-source LLM. In essence, OpenAI, just like any other API supplier with few substitutes, can squeeze or eliminate downstream services at a whim. We saw this with Twitter and its API recently.
So, should we all abandon services built on LLM APIs? Not at all. My favorite example is Upword AI. They combine document storage with an easy-to-use interface. On the back end, they have multiple LLMs to help create summaries. They may never attract enterprise users, but then again, Notion started off as a niche product for nerds, and that hasn't held them back.
What did you use to launch your affiliate program?
Lemonsqueezy.com
I saw that and had exactly the same idea, many pdf wrapper apps will lose a lot of customers. However, if you niche down and provide additional values, there is a high chance you'll be covered.
Agreed - using fine tuning or vector embeddings to tailor results something like Legal docs will be an edge
Exactly. And this is not a new phenomenon. Lots of examples of this in the wild.
You probably need to add more value and find your niche, like help students study for tests. If you give the right value, the money will follow.
This exactly. Especially with AI wrapper applications, the thicker the wrap, the better. Picking a niche and building the best product in the world for them will have a better chance than a generic, thin, AI wrapper.
I'm on a similar journey with building out ChatPC (AI for Mac automation) -- it's kind of generic right now, and am hoping that with feedback I can build a deeper solution that solves one problem really well.
Love this attitude and keep hacking away!
I like the term "thick wrapper"! That's a nice way to visualise it.
Have you found any niches yet through your app's usage?
Not yet! I just started the beta process and talking to users. Still trying to see how people want to use the app and find common themes. I also need to decide if the app should target power users vs people new to mac automation. In the long term it can probably cover both, but not clear to me where to start. Am leaning towards power users because I want to find a group of very passionate users, even if the TAM is smaller and then branch out from there.
From my own experiences, the niche power users are the most responsive. So much easier to get feedback and build for them.
And maybe see how you can make it a high-ticket-price product (see @donaldng's post https://www.indiehackers.com/post/how-i-made-27k-in-2-months-from-2nd-startup-1132c9574b)
Thank you for the link! Donald's post also led me to the article by Superhuman that was also extremely insightful (I'm not allowed to post links yet). Thank you for this conversation -- it's really helped me figure out next steps and where to focus!
Welcome! Best wishes for your product. Have followed you too.
Totally agree. This is what I'm trying to get at.
Your product seems to violate almost all the business commandments of C.E.N.T.S (Control, Entry, Need, Time, Scale).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_KlQ_Q-7cU
So if I had to speculate, yes it will die eventually.