Most founders think they're making their lives easier by selling something for cheap, when in fact they're making their lives harder.
To make $1,000,000:
When I was reading The Millionaire Next Door, some of the best advice was:
Cheap customers are often more expensive to your business, anyway. They:
Don't compete on price. :)
I like to think about "cheap" customers through the following lens:
Price is, roughly, an estimate of the value of something. The more expensive something is, the more certain you can be that the customers find it valuable. The converse is also true (generally).
Ideally, you want your customers to find what you're doing valuable, right? Then they're less likely to churn, more likely to rave about it, more likely to put effort into using it, more likely to give you meaningful feedback, etc. If you want these things, you need to sell them something valuable, which is in all likelihood going to be expensive.
The alternative is to sell something cheap (which means customers probably won't find it valuable) and then wonder why customers aren't making it an integral part of their lives, coming back to it every day, continuing to pay monthly, etc.
Beautifully said!
Interesting. Your podcast interviewees contain a test for this rule.
Convert Kit and Email Octopus each targeted the same general market, one expensive and one cheap. From the outside, I see pros and cons for each.
Both are surviving
Yeah, and it's kind of a nuanced evaluation given that Nathan Barry came in with star power, a large audience, a network of people who could help and a year's head start, but Gareth and Jonathan Bull are two people.
My guess is that Email Octopus has hit the 1M ARR goal they talked about in the podcast and pulled ahead of Convert Kit in terms of revenue but might have thinner margins.
This is an interesting perspective - I don’t personally know Gareth and Jonathan but I did have a front row seat for Nathan’s ConvertKit launch and I think you are overestimating some of his advantages!
While he did have experience selling products, the main advantage he had wasn’t “star power” but the fact that he had revenue coming in from his info products (and a fairly repeatable process for sparking sales).
His network and star power didn’t help sell ConvertKit though. In fact I watched him struggle early on, in spite of his advantages.
He did some very clever things like using his experience with selling educational products to experiment with selling SaaS the same way: he sold a package that offered to help people start building their list + 6 months of CK service. A perfect fit for readers of his book Authority, right? Not quite.
CK hobbled along for a while until he really zeroed in on his most profitable audience: professional bloggers, people already making money with their sites. He worked VERY hard on direct outreach to grow this foundation - lots of the 1-1 sales that @louisswiss talks about.
Here’s a fun fact: while Nathan is a friend and a colleague, we switched to one of his competitors for almost 2 years before becoming a customer at ConverKit, and this was very common in our circle of friends. If his star power wasn't enough to get us to use his product for our business, you can be fairly sure that "fame" has very little to do with the equation.
Thanks for the mention. I think your comment is spot on.
Holds true for many other people as well.
@brennandunn has a big audience and has built an absolutely amazing product (rightmessage.com) for example, but he and his team will be successful because they're out doing direct outreach at a level very few founders are prepared to.
I'm sure in a year or so people will be pointing at his audience as the reason rightmessage is successful.
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BTW @csallen I received a notification that I was tagged in this comment, but there was no way to click through from the notification to look at the comment (and parent post) itself.
I had to get here via the user profile of the person who mentioned me. Probably a bug?
Can send a screenshot if necessary :)
Brennan is successful (in all of his products) because he UNDERSTANDS his audience and their problems. He's very good at choosing expensive problems to solve, or places he can be a significant lever for his customers.
He's one of our most successful alums because he does this at scale AND one-to-one, not either or.
He talks a bit about how he's leaping from his freelance audience to RM in this podcast. It's a perfect example of punching above your weight class at every step: https://stackingthebricks.com/podcast/ep28-double-your-conversion-rate-with-brennan-dunn/
That's awesome. Will have to go back and have a listen.
I'm sure that's true. My point was more that we 'see' what he does at scale, but few founders realise the effort people like him and Nathan still have to put into direct sales.
It can't be a coincidence that people who hop on a sales call with me despite suffering from jetlag and 'flu just happen to be the same people who are successful and have built large audiences... ;)
Yup - like we've talked about before:
Audience size is a trailing indicator of helping one person at a time, not the other way around.
Yes a screenshot would be helpful, thanks!
Nathan got a ton of podcast coverage for ConvertKit and had luminaries like Hiten Shah personally giving him advice!
But the real question is....how much did that coverage help him? It may have caught your eye but it didn't convert (heh) into sales!
At the time when Nathan got advice from Hiten, ConvertKit was almost 2 years old, barely making more than $1000/month in revenue and losing money.
I think you're imagining him magically launching his SaaS and, because he had some notoriety on the podcast or conference circuit, he'd succeed faster or easier and that's just not true.
Furthermore, Hiten is a smart, friendly guy who likes helping people. No offense to Hiten, but access to him isn't exactly like pulling the Excalibur from a stone (this is true of most of the people you admire and want to learn from, btw).
I'm not saying Nathan didn't have advantages but the ones you believe made him successful are different from reality ;)
What I said below about Brennan is also true about Nathan: their visibility/fame/whatever you want to call it is a trailing indicator, not a leading indicator, of success.
You seriously don't think having a relevant email list, air time on the right podcasts or a fantastic network of people giving you advice is an edge?
I think all three are real advantages and ones that the Email Octopus founders will also have for their next venture.
It sounds like you're just confusing things.
Just because someone has star power, or air time on podcasts, doesn't mean the audience they've built through those channels is directly "relevant" to their niche product instantly translating in sales and success.
I've been to a MicroConf and most of these people, including Nathan and Hiten themselves were SUPER approachable. It's amazing, really. Walk right up them and have a one-on-one chat :)
What was consistent feedback from those who had "star power", "fame", were on the conference circuits, etc... was that all of this didn't really help when they launched their products.
They still struggled. I was shocked by this.
It started to make sense to me after awhile, I mean if this was the secret ingredient to GUARANTEED success, well, then... you know EXACTLY what to do to have guaranteed success, don't you?
I don't know @alexhillman, but I am totally buying into what he says based upon my own experience chatting directly with a lot of these folks in person.
Nailed it.
Success IS about using every advantage you have, or building those advantages over time.
Fame and network are overrated advantages, though.
The advantages that make a differencr includes having your own audience who trusts you, and a deep understanding of their problems. Neither of these things are easily fungible resources.
You're arguing against things I didn't write. At no point did I ever say anything about "secret ingredients" or guarantees. I didn't say having time on podcasts or a large, relevant audience "instantly translated into sales and success", either.
I do think the audience, the top-notch advisors and the airtime on large podcasts are an advantage. Not a secret that guarantees instant effortless success, but an edge.
Ummmm... nope :) Just an outsider looking in on a thread between others ;)
LOL funny. Well...
Again as an outsider looking in on a thread, I clearly saw this too with your replies, the context, push back, etc... Apparently I'm not the only one ;)
An edge doesn't necessarily translate into success (and in this case the edge you speak of didn't according to another who states a front row seat to it all), that seems to be something you're missing about this conversation.
Oh-well...
At the end of the day, I don't really care if you take anyone's feedback or not. Doesn't effect my life ;) Continue along your path, nothing to see here :)
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Convert kit still got a huge lead on Email Octupus, their MRR is at 1,4 million
Can you verify that Email Octopus is less than that?
Their podcast was more than a year ago and their traffic appears to have exploded since then.
You guys are comparing ARR to MRR. I believe ConvertKit is far, far ahead.
Very well. I've just increased the prices for Alchemist Camp memberships by 20%.
I'll post another message in a couple of months and share how it went.
Seconded.
Yeh, ConvertKit is miles ahead of us. I wish we were near $1.4m MRR!
#chargemore
trademark pending from patio11 😝
So true. I would love to dare to ask for more.
On the other hand, as I am starting out, and I just finished building my MVP, it is hard to ask for a lot of money. I feel that the service offers value, but not as much as it eventually will.
So, my approach is to ask for less by giving a 50% price reduction as launch special. I also have only one package on the website I sell. That will be the starter package in the end. So two more higher price packages to come. I plan to increase the price as the value of my product for the customer increases. I did not want to wait and build in silo, as I do not get feedback. And I did not want to not charge, as I think putting a price out there steers the conversations with potential customers in the right direction.
So, my is: how would you handle this "starting" dilemma, that I think many of us face? @csallen what is your take on this?
Generally, people pay not based on the complexity of your solution to their problems, but based on the value they get from that solution. That value is limited by the scope of the problem itself. So my advice is always to pick the most valuable problems from the get-go.
Okay, that's a bit airy-fairy and theoretical. How about a practical example:
Let's say you build a task app for consumers to track things in their everyday lives. You spend 5 years on it, and it is perfection. It's got the slickest UX, the best integrations, it's powerful, it's easy to use, it's fast, it's everything. Guess what? Most people still aren't going to pay more than $5 or $10/month for it, because most people don't find task management all that valuable in their personal lives. You're going to have to find 1000s of customers (hard) or tailor your product to a niche that will allow you to charge more.
Alternatively, let's say you start a company that helps tech companies hire developers. You've only worked on the site for 6 months, and it's suuuuper freaking simple. Maybe it's just a blog. But whatever it does, it's pretty good at attracting talented developers. Guess what? Companies will pay you hundreds of dollars to get in front of those developers and/or thousands of dollars per successful hire, depending on your business model. Developers cost them upwards of $150k to hire, so a $1k finders fee is nothing. Hiring is a valuable problem for them. You can hit ramen profitability from just a handful of customers per month.
Okay, this is still super high-level. Let me talk about your question more specifically:
Should you give a 50% price reduction early on? Sure. Something like this won't matter in the grand scheme of things, especially since it's only temporary and only in the early days. I would be surprised if this decision affects your business in the long term.
What I'm more concerned about is your statement, "I plan to increase the price as the value of my product for the customer increases." That's perfectly fine, as long as you don't fall into the trap of boxing yourself in by solving a problem that's not very valuable. Then it doesn't matter how much code you write in the future, your new pricing tiers will still be relatively cheap.
Can confirm. As a co-founder of Y-Productive, which is exactly a task app for consumers to track their digital activities for improved workflow with a slick UI. We've worked for 3+ years on it and people aren't willing to pay even $7 per month for it.
Finding 1000 customers is a slow process in this case and we might run out of resources before it happens, so @csallen is right in every his word.
Hey @csallen, thank you so much for the detailed and really helpful awnser. That totally makes sense.
I guess the first business I started is a rather "cheap" business then. I start with a 20 euros per month tier and plan the highest tier around 150 per month. But, there are other possibilities around later for sponsorship.
As I evolve and pivot the product, I'll try to build closer towards the problem space you describe.
Thanks a lot!
In my experience it is TOTALLY OKAY to discount for early access, so long as the thing you are selling actually solves a problem that people would pay full price to solve.
Early Access discounts, founding customer clubs, etc are great ways to reward people buying in early (and positioning the discounted price against a premium price that others will have to pay later).
Hey @alexhillman, thank you so much for your insights. The positioning is really important, I think. Otherwise rising the price will be difficult.
I'm a bit worried that I only offer the lowest tier right now - and with a discount.
In your experience, can adding higher price tiers later be problematic?
Thanks again for your insights.
Agreed!
It's also useful to bear in mind that you have more levers to adjust than just price.
Are just a few options you can offer as an 'added bonus' to sweeten the deal, instead of bargaining over price alone.
The trick is to work out which of the above is most suitable to handle whatever objection the customer has to paying the full price you're asking for.
Sometimes it does just come down to price though. Especially when there are network effects to your product and your network is small in the early days...
Yes yes. Was just working with a coaching client on Friday on this exact thing.
He sells niche comics and own of our February experiments is going to be a "double feature" release (he normally releases a single comic every week).
We played with a few options for this special sale and instead of discounting the individual comics to encourage more purchases, we decided to do a limited release bundle where both comics are available for a discount but only if you buy them together.
It's a win/win. They get a 2nd comic for 30% off (if they want both). We get more total sales than if they only bought the first comic.
And since the comics are still sold at their normal price individually, so we don't diminish their normal value.
Will report back on how this goes!
Please do!
I have a friend who runs a subscription razor blade business and stumbled across something similar which I found really interesting...
You can order packs of (something like) 3, 10, or 20 blades at a time. When you use up your pack, a new pack will be delivered within a few days (you just click a button).
I wouldn't have thought that it would make sense to sell the 20 blade pack that much cheaper than the 3 blade pack, but apparently the fewer razors you have left in your bathroom cabinet, the longer you'll wait before replacing the current blade you're using.
So by selling 20-packs, the average lifetime of a razor blade was easily half as long as the lifetime of a razor blade in a 3-pack (and the customer would therefore order >2x as many blades per year).
A weird example that has stuck with me ever since I first heard it!
That is weird, but super cool. Love those examples!
What?! That is interesting!
Fascinating. Consumer behavior is so weird.
Marc Andreessen said if could put a billboard on the 101 with a single message to entrepreneurs it would be "raise prices"
If your value prop is based on a cheaper price then yes. If you have a value prop unrelated to price then at least 2x the price you have in your head to charge. You'll attract more qualified leads that cost less customer support resources. Freebie customers are sometimes very expensive.
It's very difficult to compete on price as an indie hacker. Usually cost savings come from economies of scale (i.e. being a huge company and controlling lots of resources), or from raising a ton of money and being able to sell at a loss for a while. So I would discourage most IHers from making price their value prop :-D
Agreed.
Unfortunately you see a lot of IHers creating products that only have price as a differentiator.
I have competitors doing this and curious how they handle it. My lowest plan brings the most support requests and churn by far and not because I have more subscribing there.... I'm even thinking to ditch it. I can't image how they handle cheaper or freemium plans.
Funny(and pretty obvious) is that those who offer cheaper plans are side-projects and very new, all established and serious competitors are more expensive.
There is another train of thought " race to the bottom". Your pricing will not stop it. -- Get prepared - Watch the big ones fall.
If your house is built on price, any auld wolf can come along and blow it down...know your worth...ask for it...but make sure you deliver more that what you're getting.
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