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28 Comments

Struggling to get off the ground

I've been working on a project since 2015, and although I'm disheartened, I have no plans of giving up.

I feel I've exhausted every option, and the only thing I can do is keep working nights and weekends until things one day change.

What I'm trying to build is a web-based platform with connected devices, for scientific use. This means a React-based app, with connected devices, providing users with RBAC, and social / collaboration features.

Before you respond with the typical lean startup tropes, please let me assure that I've done my homework. I know the basics, so please don't insult me with the typical armchair advice: post some landing pages, run a/b tests, run ad campaigns, gather metrics, build an MVP using a presentation maker.. And of course, fail fast! Oh yes, don't forget to fail! What a load of horse shit.

When have you EVER heard about someone in the hard sciences, having succeeded because they failed fast? "Oh ya, we developed a new type of bone implant and we succeeded because it was a huge failure, so then we ran some A/B tests and pivoted to nose implants."

I first started with 3D printed POC prototypes, and I posted demo videos to specific forums where certain portions of the target customer demographic hangout. And I sent the videos to field experts. This led to many conversations and introductions to more field experts, and after much ideation, I switched from the initial idea of a patented physical product, to a web-based service with connected devices. I tested the new idea by attending a conference and asking more field experts if they like this idea. The response was typically between warm and exuberant. Nobody expressed dislike for the idea, everyone felt it sounded generally good. A professor from Stanford liked the idea so much, he invited us to lunch so he could share with us some of his research data, and how our idea would be applicable to his work.

This was strongly encouraging. But there's still a disconnect between what people say, what they perceive, and what they do. Just because a product is good, doesn't mean it will sell.

I've done the work of finding expert advisors with established track records of success. I've worked to build a team. I have a neuroscientist, an electrical engineer, a bioengineer and product manager, and a designer (who I pay out of pocket). I've had absolutely miserable luck trying to recruit the kind of developers I need. I am a senior software engineer, BTW.

I still feel very stuck. I've talked to people about funding, we've applied to YC and other accelerator-type programs many times, and we've written two grant proposals. It seems my only option is to work nights and weekends hoping and dreaming that my hard work will pay off, that I won't be terribly disappointed. I've sunk countless thousands of dollars into this project, paying for electrical engineering contractors, and for my designer, and for professional pitch deck development, and all the many small services that add up over time, like Wix or what have you.

I am a senior software engineer, so I'm fully capable of building everything that needs to be built. The problem I have is not enough time, and too much work for one person to take on all by himself. I feel what would help more than anything, is to find at least one other react developer to work with me, but that's been damn near impossible. Unlike Rust and Elixir developers, React developers seem to have a "fuck you, pay me" sort of attitude. If I approach these other communities (Rust, Elixir, etc), developers are like, "Wow, tell me about your project", and "I wanna work on cool projects like this!". But what we need more than anything is help building the frontend. Firebase is good enough for the backend for now.

on March 13, 2020
  1. 4

    @RobChristian — i feel your struggle! i've been building projects (big and small, enterprise and venture-funded startups) for years...

    ... the one thing that i haven't heard much here in this post is simply talking to customers and your effort to build a community around your project... is this something you're also doing consistently?

    lmk how i can help! i'm here yo!

    1. 1

      Thanks John! Ya, it's just hard to fit everything in and still keep the post short enough for everyone to take in.

      Prospective customers I've spoken with:

      The last two actually work with me. Sheida was able to join us as a core team member.

      Could you elaborate for me? What do you foresee a community doing for us, in this context?

      Thanks

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        i talk to 18-20 customers a week, during the peak times, especially in early-product development.

        i've talked to 2,000+ in the last 3 years.

        and... now, we're building product. takes a long time to build a real community, which, it seems, you know very little about!

        community BEFORE product, 100% of the time.

        we can definitely chat more, but, it seems like you've done a classic engineering mistake (me too, i've a software engineer for 22+ years)... building something that not a lot of people actually want.

        if the last two folks on your list are customers, then, what's the problem? you have revenue, right?

        here's something i wrote that might give you a high-level:

        https://www.indiehackers.com/post/community-first-everything-else-second-5639023141

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          I don't think you're right about that. You don't have enough info yet to draw that conclusion. But thank you for sharing this info, I definitely took it fully into consideration, and will continue to think about this idea of building a community.

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            i could say the same for you! why ask for help if you’re disinterested in listening to what other folks think?

            your history of interaction here in IH shows how you typically engage with others — your dogmatism isn’t a good look.

            pissing on microsoft and other technologies (i’ve seen you took down that comment) is just not cool — this isn’t how you build community.

            you’ve been here 3+ months... and just a few comments. i’ve been here < 1 month... a very different way of engaging.

            i’ve been in your shoes. i’m obviously older and more stupider than you. it’s okay to admit that you need help... but then you have to listen when folks actually offer it.

            [*edit, i'm only 2-3 years older than you according to your profile... i take that back. i'm just more stupid!]

            if you have customers and revenue then you’re on the right track. you don’t need much more advice except... keep going!

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              Jeesus dude, take a chill pill. My response was respectful, yours was not. Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm disrespecting you.

              ... Seriously dude, this is a fucking personal attack. That's just really uncalled for. And the thread you're talking about, the OP asked what technology he should use. He invited people to give their opinion on which technologies are good choices, and I simply tried to explain why I would avoid certain technologies. I'm fully in my right to do that, and besides, OP asked for this input. Naturally, certain programmers get pissy when they hear someone say their favorite technology isn't the best. I'm not really interested in inviting all this negativity into my life, I just wanted to try to save someone else some of the pain that I've had to go thru, dealing with technology choices that seemed great in the beginning, but became a nightmare later on. But obviously some people don't like that kind of critique, so I decided to withdraw from the interaction. I don't really appreciate you making all of this personal.

              Thanks anyway.

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                maybe it was the microsoft comment. 🤔🤨🙃

                *edited march 16, 7:47pm PST

                if you feel that way, i'm sorry. i really am. this world, especially at this time, doesn't need any more negativity and i wasn't trying to be.

                i actually didn't take the microsoft comment personally at all. i was just surprised at how you answered it so harshly. so, i read more of your comments and found a pattern, that's all. 🤷🏻‍♂️

                my goal isn't to save anyone from their mistakes. i'm not sure why you're even trying to do that (as you've stated in your comment) — the best decisions i've made have been the ones where i've run down the wrong path, only to learn from my mistake, course-correct, and try again.

                but, maybe that's just how you do (and that's totally cool). we all have our approaches and mine, clearly, doesn't work all the time! i'll take that as an opportunity to back out of your thread and say, good luck!

                really wish you the best and i really am sorry that this turned so nasty, so quickly. that was my fault and i own it 100%.

        2. 1

          Wow - I am impressed and anxious at the same time!

          You have spoken face/face or on the phone to 2000 different people in 3 years in your market? Wow. How did you find them all? How much time doe that take up, and is it realistic for a side hustle? Is it necessary for most people, or is it particular to what you are doing?

          I'm anxious because that sounds like a lot to get through. I'm on a similar path, at 2 so far :-). But I'd imagine talking to say 100 a year.

          1. 1

            building something meaningful takes a fuckton of time. i’ve been working on this project for 3 years. i pivoted late last year: http://blog.yen.io/yen30

  2. 2

    Have you read "The Mom Test" by Rob Fitzpatrick? Your description of people being excited about the product but not be committal to you selling them is exactly what he describes in his book. I'd suggest giving it a quick read and see what you think after you read it.

    To your other points: have you tried posting on Indie Hackers in the "Looking to Partner Up" group? You may find plenty of React devs there looking to help out on a project.

    1. 1

      I hadn't noticed that group. Thanks for the tip.

      In truth, I haven't used the internet for looking for partners in a long time. I originally was on FounderDating and some other site and I used a pro account to get better visibility, but I never met developers that way and eventually gave up on it. I did try scouring the internet for other sites again later, but after several tries, I decided to change my strategy to in-person opportunities, like meetups and hackathons. Attending either of these ended up being horribly slow, the ratio of potential matches to time spent was really poor, so what I do now is run a meetup of my own. Every Monday at 5:30pm, I host it out of a conference room at the offices where I work. My employers is fully onboard with it. This helps me keep my time focused on building my startup, and letting potential matches come to me.

      But I suppose the real reason I don't have any "developers wanted" postings online right now, is because we took down our Wix site. It was really instrumental in describing our vision and the opportunity to prospective new team members. For example, I found our electrical engineer thru craigslist, and the posting was really short and high-level, and pointed readers to our website.

  3. 2

    Do you have a website where you have a demo of your project ?

    1. 1

      tl;dr: no.

      We took down the Wix site because I had written it for a general audience, and my neuroscientist was unhappy with it not being appropriate for our academic audience. So we were going to rebuild it, and I have mocks for the new version, but I haven't been able to settle on a headless CMS I like. I used to be open to paying for services, so something like GraphCMS would have been a thing I'd use, but now days, I've burnt thru so much cash, I'm pretty damn hard-nosed about only spending money on essentials (like getting another batch of prototypes made). I also considered just hardcoding the new site, but I get so damn tired of my team asking for revisions and then all of the work falls on me to apply the changes and publish. I have a dropbox full of many many mocks, and I have a working Electron app. But it's not connected to firebase right now.

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        This comment was deleted 4 years ago.

        1. 1

          I'm asking for ideas, or for people to share some insight. I think I'm one of very few people in IH who's trying to launch something that's not a consumer-facing or SaaS b2b project. The majority of the content out there is not applicable. Am I wrong? I think I gave enough details. If anything is unclear, please let me know.

          I don't have a pitch I can give you guys right now, because, as the reply says, we don't have anything prepared right now.

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            To be fair all you've said is you're building a web-based platform with connected devices for scientific use.

            People probably need more detail if you want insights or interest.

            You say you don't have a pitch but what did you say to the professor & the Elixir + Rust developers to get them so excited?

            It's doubtful imo that simply gaining another React developer is going to solve this for you. What is the real problem here?

            1. 1

              When I had a Wix website, it gave a high-level view of what we want to build, in 1 to 2 pages. The first page had the vision, and the second backed it up with all the most exciting scientific discoveries, and references for each.

              It was really only useful to explain what we're doing to engineers or simply any person who's not of an academic background. The same site shown to academics, and they would fucking hate it. But if you gave me 10 minutes with those same academics, they'd love the idea. One of my team members is a neuroscientist and we're working together to make the next version of our website, one that works for both audiences.

          2. 1

            You are half right regarding whether the general advice are working or not in your situation. Working in biotech and IOT (connected devices and e-mobility) I learned that the fast iteration part is just not working If you have to make complex product as the first prototype for even being just demo your vision. But I also learned that sales can solve all of your problem and you can sell none existing product or just concepts for enterprises customers. Your main problem is, I think is that your audience - the academic/scientific community - is not a typical enterprise customer because they really not buy services unless you are part of a consortium of winning grant application. So one strategy that worked for us to help your customer to win grants and get into consortium and alliances. Other possible strategy is to sell for large resellers who are already suppliers for universities and research centers.

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              Yes, you know the challenges I've encountered. When I speak to prospective customers, they say they're willing to test something for me, but they're shocked if they find out that I'm talking to them before I have a prototype that has production-level readiness.

              Could you elaborate for me, what you mean when you write, "So one strategy that worked for us to help your customer to win grants and get into consortium and alliances."?

              True, I'm not a salesman, but I also don't know how I could sell my proposed service, and be able to deliver on it by to some delivery date. I'm not working on this full-time, so that whole plan is still a big time commitment.

              I spoke to another founder back in 2017 who gave a fantastic pitch about a company he had gotten off the ground, and he explained in his pitch that prospective customers bought his solution before it existed. I talked to him 1-on-1 after the pitch, and I learned that most of these customers didn't follow thru on their commitments to purchase, but that it didn't for him because he only needed the commitments. I don't know that this would actually work for us.

              One approach I was wanting to try, was a crowd funding campaign. I was trying to collect interviews with field experts to explain the importance of the area of research, but I found it very hard to get those interviews. I did get one with Dr. Nicole (last name omitted on purpose), but she was a special case. I spoke to a leading researcher at UCLA and he explained that he's unwilling to do an interview on the subject with me, because of the risk he perceives from having his name associated with my startup, even if he's not specifically endorsing us or what we're building. I still want to do the crowdfunding campaign, but we need prospective customers to be okay with us using their interview footage for that campaign, and I think the only way to do that, is give them a prototype to test that impresses them. And that means building something that fully works end-to-end.

              1. 1

                "So one strategy that worked for us to help your customer to win grants and get into consortium and alliances." = Go to the professors you have contact with and who already found your idea interesting and potentially useful. Ask them if they willing to participate in a grant application as a partner. Together you find the appropriate grant. It not required to be a large one (million+ USD); you can target smaller ones (about 100k), which is more likely you can win with 1-2 partners. Part to the grant application is the license/subscription fee the academic partner will pay you for development and providing the service up-front.

                The chance of successful crowdfunding in this topic is very slim.

                1. 1

                  I came here to write something along these lines; institutional partner and government grants. Seems right for your niche. Does the university you attended have any entrepreneurial initiatives or an incubator? It's becoming more popular nowadays.

                  Also, for subject matter experts and products that aren't direct to consumer, I don't really see the need for a community. If I were to try to sell mining equipment right now, which I have in the past, I'm really wasting my time to get potential customers to read a blog or join a Discord channel haha.

                  Aside, my mother's maiden name is Christian, which I don't use for any passwords or recovery answers in case someone is now going to try to hack me LOL.

  4. 1

    Can I help you get a website together using my service? I'm happy to have you use it for free.

    1. 1

      That would be greatly appreciated. I don't see a direct message feature on this site, so I guess email me? My personal address: [email protected]. Does the service include CMS features?

  5. 1

    In bootstrapping your business is very hard to work on this sort of businesses. Previously I worked in multiple types of businesses that require devices and the best approach to get funded is to find someone that needs this solution so much that is able to fund the development in some way.
    Regarding you issue with React developers that is very common topic now a day. I think React became the thing to go for a frontend and because of that developers have the advantage to accept only pay offers. I would recommend that you sort out exactly all the requirements that you want to fullfil, and them setup a budget even very small one. Then go to all the freelancers pages put your requirement and project cost. That help me a lot.

    1. 1

      Thank you, this is helpful.

  6. 1

    I was in a startup school batch ran by YC where a hard science team focused on getting letters of intent.

    " Another definition of this is, for our biotech, hard tech business is, it often takes a lot of time and money to get your first product to market. So, what's a founder to do, especially if you have little funding? So, there's two answers to this. One is, if there are no regulatory issues to doing sales for your product, you should actually do the same as everyone else. It should be most likely revenue. Your primary metric should be revenue in the form of paid contracts, LOIs, POC is proof of contracts"

    https://jotengine.com/transcriptions/Rvc96bMfkTc9s0PnBokSrg

    Basically go out and sell if you can. Once you have some contracts getting investment will be a lot easier.

    Also as a senior software engineer who is already hiring people and has limited time I wouldn't waste that on building a site.

    Find a free/cheap template and use that for a 1 pager.

    " professional pitch deck development" focus on getting sales, no matter how good the pitch deck is without sales you won't get any investment, angels and VCs might lead you on as they don't want to say no.

    1. 1

      Thank you, this is helpful.

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    This comment was deleted 6 years ago.

    1. 1

      Let me rephrase in a better and easier way:
      Struggling? Good.
      Horsehit BS? Good.
      Wasted a lot of money on outsources? Good.

      Be more specific about what you're looking for? Good.
      Follow the KISS principle? Good.
      Your hard work will pay off? ....
      If your Product is Good, not to you, but your target audience? Good.

      I applaud you for not giving up though. I would say DATA is KING. Follow that, if DATA isn't coming right, of course getting attached emotionally to your 'baby' is one thing, but move on and make the same 'baby' product more narrowed down to your target audience. Oh please don't fail, aim for success, no plan B. This is it. Go in full force. Share with us so we can give more insight, help, and support. See ya.

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