You shouldn't indie hack due to the fear of not landing a coding job
Indie hacking is awesome. For the purposes of this discussion, when I make the claim that new coders should not be indie hacking, let me be clear, I only think that's the case if you are the one writing custom code for your project. If you are a no-code maker, these thoughts don't really apply to you.
If you're brand new to coding, get a job first
Many self-taught devs want to dive headfirst into the indie hacking world. This can come from a place of love for entrepreneurship, but I've also seen it come from a place of fear. If you have a project you're super passionate about, it can absolutely work out, but if you are just scared of interviewing, that's a problem.
Let's explore why trying to avoid coding interviews by pursuing self-employment should, perhaps counterintuitively, be scarier to you as a new dev.
Don't indie hack because you are afraid you can't find a dev job
If you aren't qualified for an entry-level dev job, you definitely aren't qualified to run your own company. It's really hard. Not only do you have to quickly publish production-ready code, but you also have to build what people actually want and market it to them. That's not to mention a slew of other headaches that come with running your own project. If fear of failure is your primary motivator, you'll have a much easier time if you just keep growing your skills and keep applying to full-time jobs.
Don't freelance because you are afraid you can't find a dev job
Freelancing when you're brand new to coding is a bad idea, but I would argue it's less of a bad idea than indie hacking. When freelancing, you have extra responsibilities like finding clients and marketing yourself, but at least you don't have to worry about product-market fit. The main reason I say to stay away from freelancing as a newbie is that all your bad habits will go uncorrected. If your first couple of years as a dev are spent with other developers you'll learn a ton from them and they'll help iron out a lot of your bad habits and misconceptions.
Okay, so I should get a job first, when do I start indie hacking?
Well, immediately. If you have the entrepreneurial itch, there's no reason you can't start scratching it as soon as possible. Once you have that day job, I'd recommend carving out ~10 hours per week (or whatever your desire for work-life-balance allows) to work on a side project. You'll learn a ton, and all while you still have financial security.
When does it make sense to quit and go full-time?
This depends on your risk tolerance. Once you have 2-3 years of dev experience in the current market you will almost certainly not struggle to find new jobs. That means you can fairly safely quit your full-time position to work on a project, and if things go south you just go grab a new job. However, this is why it's important to have that job experience first.
How should I learn if my goal is to become an indie hacker?
If your goal is to create products on the internet, the only shift I'd make in your self-taught curriculum is to focus more on web technologies than you might otherwise. I do not think you should skip fundamentals and try to skim by with boilerplate frameworks and NPM modules, as that will only set you back in the long run. If you're interested in my methodology you can read more about that here.
I've thought a lot about the issues I bring up above because I've been running Qvault for the last few years. It's a learn-to-code site with an emphasis on computer science and modern technologies.
That was great advice! I'm currently a CS student but I always have that itch to start building. I have built very small personal projects but they come no where close to real production grade systems. I would like to know if contributing to other open source projects is a good step in the road-map to become indie hacker for someone before getting a job or some kind of replacement to job experience.
Interesting @wagslane! I'm not sure I agree with your definition of indie hacking though... Hacking isn't just about code imo. Anything can be hacked. Bio-hacking, neuro hacking, content hacking, growth hacking. Indie hacking for me is about breaking out of the system and reclaiming my freedom. It's like...hacking independence. Anyway, I can appreciate a lot of what you said here, like not making choices out of fear. Thanks for the share.
Good point, I guess I should be clear I'm not trying to define "indiehacking" generally, I'm just defining it for the purpose of my post. However people choose to label themselves is fine with me :)
Word
Speaking from personal experience, I tried hacking together side projects for a few years without formal software development experience or training. I picked up a lot during that time, but it was very slow going and I was frustrated a lot. I ended up making a career switch to software engineering about 9 months ago. This has meant 8 hours a day of practice, exposure to best practices and tools, learning fundamentals, and receiving mentorship from tech leads. I am way more productive and confident in my side projects now as a result. I agree that indie hackers don't need prior dev experience to be successful, but for me it's been very helpful.
While I think people might take the title the wrong way, I 100% agree that as a software developer, the learnings from working on someone else's production app are invaluable. From collaborating on a team, scaling infrastructure, error reporting, to handling deployments, there's a lot more to learn about running production apps than just coding and that's tough to do without a real world application. The list just goes on and on. The best part is you're getting paid to learn all of this. When you inevitably take down production its not your baby.
I don't think this is great advice. If you can't find a dev job, spinning up an indie coding project can boost your resume and help you.
In fact, Stardew Valley (a bestseller and beloved game) was created by someone who couldn't find a dev job.
That's amazing! Stardew Valley is pretty story-driven but games are one of the most demanding types of software work. If he couldn't get a dev job, the market was broken.
Coding interviews are very algorithmic and rarely even close to what you would work on as a dev. So, it's not surprising.
His talents would've probably been wasted in a 9-5 anyway.
Both game devs I previously worked with were very strong on the algo side, but maybe it’s different for them since they did 3D games for consoles.
Oh yeah that makes sense. Stardew is a 2D game and I think it's charm comes from the graphics, characters and actions, not from super cool technical features.
Yeah, that's a great example of someone who was able to make it work. That said, I'd argue that he didn't do it out of fear, but out of necessity. Going straight to indie hacking or freelancing out of fear I think is the biggest problem.
I also want to point out that I (and the Qvault curriculum) heavily encourage learners to be building projects for resume purposes. That said, building projects for your resume is a lot different than spending months doing market research and learning how to market your project. It's a lot faster to build for learning purposes and is more focused on engineering than the product.
interesting, the game looks attractive. How do you know the author did not find a dev job?
Stardew Valley was created by American indie game designer Eric Barone, under the alias of ConcernedApe.[4][5] In 2011, Barone had graduated from the University of Washington Tacoma with a computer science degree, but had not been able to get a job in the industry, instead working as an usher at the Paramount Theatre in Seattle.[6][7] Looking to improve his computer skills for better job prospects, he came to the idea of crafting a game which would also pull in his artistic side.[6] Growing up in the Pacific Northwest, Barone incorporated many elements of the region into the gameplay and art.[8]
thanks for the citation :)
I think experience comes from a lot of different places, not just employment at a company.
Arguably, freelancing builds other skills necessary in indiehacking too—how to run a business, how to gracefully work with clients, how to network, market, and more.
I’ve always taken a non-traditional path 😂 and it’s worked out better than I ever could have dreamed
Though, I agree, fear is not the best motivator. If you don’t have the indiehacker itch or aren’t very independent, then a dev job is probably in your best interest.
That's awesome, I'm glad it's working out for you! There will absolutely be examples of people like you who are able to make it work. In my experience so far with Qvault and the hundreds of students I've talked to, this advice holds true for the average person, and if fear is the motivator, it's almost always true.
I think mostly what it boils down to is getting experience in what a production development lifecycle looks like and what standard of quality you should be aiming to meet. I don’t necessarily think that that has to take the form of employment if for some reason finding a job isn’t tenable (for example, being a consistent collaborator and contributor to a high profile OSS project like Yarn or React might suffice).
More in support of your argument, working at a company will expose you to a lot of issues that could serve as inspiration for your own SaaS business, which was probably where almost every major SaaS business came from.
Thanks for the article, I can really relate to it. I'm self taught and have no college degree. After making the decision to change careers and become a developer, I spent a solid year learning to code.
When I felt "Ready" to start applying for dev jobs I was having serious doubts and second guessing my abilities. The thought of interviewing really scared me. I started to think about exactly what you mentioned, freelancing or trying to create a product on my own.
I realized that I was trying to avoid the fear and possible rejection associated with interviewing.
Now after having a dev job for about 5 years I'm thinking about creating a SAAS product of my own and I'm thankful for having first had job. There were so many things that I didn't realize that I didn't know, just the experience of being a developer and working with others.
I'm sure everyone has their own opinions and experiences but for me this was dead on.
Glad you could relate :)
This is all pretty restrictive imo.
I've been a dev for 17 years, and I got my start freelancing while in school.
I kept striking out trying to get internships so I was like screw it, I'll get the experience thru other means. In this case, freelancing. I did it for a year before I got my first full time job as a dev.
The major reason I got my first dev job was due to the rave reviews my freelancing clients had been giving me. I got a letter of recommendation from one of them, and was told he sat on the phone with my then-to-be manager for a long 30 minutes talking about me. He was ecstatic about helping me to land my first official software developer gig because of the good work and customer service I provided him with.
My manager didn't care about the school or degree. Dozens of other candidates had the same qualifications on their resume. He told me hearing my former client talk about me was enough to tilt the scale in my direction.
You've got some great points about getting into situations where you can be trained with good habits under the tutelage of a good lead dev. I agree with that absolutely.
But there are an immeasurable number of good skills you are forced to develop as a freelancer that will benefit you greatly later on in your career. Namely the biggies: good communication, negotiation, customer service, scoping out work, estimating.
I think I can see the motivation behind your post in preventing some budding Indie Hackers from procrastinating on their ultimate goal (to get employed), and that's an honorable cause. But I disagree on the black and white tonality and forbidding freelancing - often times it's not about fear of not finding a dev job - it could very well be because someone isn't getting a fair shake on the job market and they want to dive into a new situation and challenge themselves. Prove themselves, and get some valuable experience they can use as a bargaining chip later.
This is a really well-thought-out response, I appreciate your perspective. I think I'll do something longer form on the Qvault site later, especially after learning from everyone's comments here.
Thanks! Would love to see the next article.
Is Qvault just a solo effort on your part for right now, or do you have other contributors as well?
Mostly solo, I've paid a few contractors for most things. I did recently hire a junior dev to work part-time who is awesome, he is finishing a CS degree at a local university
Interesting that so many people disagree with this post. The only problem I have with it is that it makes a lot of assumptions. Everyone has different abilities and values when it comes to indie hacking.
I also have to say that when I first learned how to code, I thought I was good enough to do my own thing. But after 4 years of experience as a software developer, I now know that I could not have created my startup back then if I tried.
For me it was the other way around. I learned to code by “indiehacking” and then got hired as a developer when I needed it, because they liked what I built.
There is no better way to learn code that by creating something you really like.
On the other hand I met a guy at the company that was there to learn. He got assigned some scraping tasks, hated it, became disgusted with programming and quit..
I disagree, if someone is resourceful and they can get a product to where it needs to be, they can do it without getting a job coding. I don't take pre-requisite type advice seriously because there are many examples to the contrary, maybe alternative motives for writing something like this; so that gives less weight to the advice.
Are there "better" ways of going about it, like having a coding job first? Maybe, but again, people's experiences are so subjective and many variables are involved, and there are successes who have done the opposite of what you're suggesting, so maybe it could be a preferred way for some, but not the only, most efficient way for all. Point is, there are no rules!!
I don't think we disagree. There are no rules, and everyone should be able to do whatever they want. I'm not advocating for some rule against indiehacking without a first job xD
There are plenty of examples of people making it work as their first foray into development. My point is that if fear is motivating you into indiehacking instead of a genuine interest in product development or entrepreneurship, it's probably a bad idea.
Why gatekeep?
I have met people with double CS phds who I would not trust to write HTML. I have met 15 years old with 50 hours of coding experience who were good enough to automate small business processes.
Of course, be honest about your skills and product, don't scam and don't misrepresent - but that applies whether you have 20 years or 20 minutes of experience.
sorry, but I don't think this advice to useful. If you want to indiehack, indiehack
I think you need to read the entire article. I don't disagree with what you're saying at all.
I totally agree, but my risk tolerance is fairly low. However I would tend to include no-code makers because I believe some coding experience will get you further either way. I actually just did a thread with some similar thoughts to this.
nice post, totally, getting a job after learning to code (or at least like, get a job and then immediately start a side gig) has so many benefits.
I think this more applies to fresh college graduates or young adults and not necessarily applies to someone who just learned coding as career switch. For example out of college I worked at a startup which eventually ended up failing. Through this process I learned so much lesson around not only coding but over all business and it was done on someone else's dime. However, I do not think working at large established software company will give you same experience. I do agree with you that it is nice to have few years of professional experience and can lean back on it if things go south. But i don't think it should not be prerequisite for someone to become indie hacker as long as they are willing to put in the work.
This advice is really bad.
Wrong.
I still haven't work for a company and I have been indiehacking for around three years.
I have built and designed all my projects, in fact two of my projects just got acquire.
See here:
I don't think even @csallen had a job before he started indiehacking (I could be wrong, it's what I've gleaned from the podcast so far). But that's not my point! We don't disagree, there's nothing wrong with that, and no reason you can't do it. Read the whole article, or at least the first 3 paragraphs.
Why you making assumptions? 🤔😊....
I disagree 100%. Without a side project there's not much to show.,
With all my respect, it makes zero sense what you wrote, you like it or not...
Humans learn in different ways...is not "one size fits all",
I disagree as well. There are so many non-coding tools out there to help you build an MVP. Sometimes you just need a landing page and nothing more. It really depends on the product, the customer and the product. Being a founder is not the same with being a programmer.
I don't think we disagree at all... I specifically said this doesn't apply if you aren't writing code.
Most founders end up coding even when using the non coding tools. I started out with no coding experience whatsoever and had to learn some basic php to modify an open source MVP. It really depend on the complexity of the MVP but I truly believe you don't need a previous coding job to get started. When you have some traction you can either get a co-founder or raise a seed round and hire one.
Again, we agree. I think you should read the whole article! The point is to not let fear be your motivating factor.
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Actually yeah, I've been working with hundreds of students for over a year, and we do weekly workshops where i chat with them about challenges. I'm not perfectly in tune with the entire market, but I try to keep my ear to the ground.
Getting a job when you are brand new is hard, but it's perfectly achievable. We just had 3 students get jobs in the last couple weeks. What would be really bad from for my company is saying "getting a job can't be done, no one will hire you"! The whole point of Qvault is to upskill and get that first job.
The biggest problem students have is they don't understand how to differentiate themselves so they can get their first job, and of the students we have who are engaged and looking to improve, the success rate is great.
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Good points. Yeah, the thing about this advice is that it isn't personalized. This doesn't apply to plenty of people
Agree. I think It depends on the person's risk tolerance like you said. I like to have concrete plan and backup plan. Also I don't like to start a thing when I am not fully ready. So for me it was no-brainer for me to get a job at a start up to learn how thinks worked out of college. I probably could have started something out of college but i would have to go through lots of learning in short time on my own dime. That is a big risk and some people can jump in without second look.
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Sorry if it offended you xD that wasn't my intention. It's often that when putting pen to paper the nuance is lost. Let me try to clear some things up.
I'm not trying to gatekeep, I'm just sharing I've had a lot of students telling me they want to do sideprojects or freelance because they are scared of coding interviews. I think that's a terrible reason to go do the higher risk-higher reward thing.
Also, songbox looks cool. Gonna check it out.
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What's the MRR? I looked on Songbox's product page and it just had $720 from 2 years ago in a screenshot and doesn't display one now.
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That’s definitely a win from a personal standpoint, but maybe not enough to lean on to dethrone a guru post 😉
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Sure, np.
I asked about the MRR because you said the OP's advice was "absolutely mental" and then used your story as evidence. Not following advice they laid out and then succeeding:
Since this argument uses your authority as founder of Songbox to make a point, the bigger Songbox, the more convincing. If it's 500k+/month, I'd want to know more about your methods and copy them! But if it were under $1k/month, then maybe it would actually strengthen the OP's point.
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Ah, I hadn't realized the title had changed. Now it seems like mostly advice to self-teach fundamentals along with the cobbled together projects.
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