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The case against sharing MRR, ARR, LTV - or anything else that reveals how you are doing financially

The IH podcast is my favorite, has been for years. That said, I am vehemently against sharing numbers that are far more likely to put my startup at risk. I find it unfortunate that no one wants to talk about just how dangerous it is to share numbers that reveal how you're doing financially. This is something that I hope Courtland comes to understand in time. After all, when we are all telling new founders how important it is to simply stay afloat, why are we asking them to share numbers that put them in harms way?

As the founder of RiteKit, I understand my number one responsibility to be protecting our ability to continue. Sharing the numbers mentioned could be disastrous. Here's why:

I'll explain with one example: MRR, though there are other numbers that you should never share with anyone. How many active customers, customer or product LTV (lifetime value), etc.

So, MRR: Tell anyone your MRR and it's out there. You don't know who they'll share them onwards with, or who those people will reshare them with - and there is very little chance that to each person, that number will fall into the sweet zone of not too high, not too low.

High and Low problems

What's wrong with someone hearing a sales number that they subjectively decide is high: someone in the Bay Area hears that you're doing $10K MRR, they imagine what their costs would be to do a copycat project, and they are not interested. Okay, but about the CS-degreed and quite competent developer in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Egypt, etc., where they may be working full-time for well under US$1,000/month? (Yes, often it's well under that!)

This person might easily arrive at the following line of reasoning. They are not going to begin where you did; they'll start at where you arrived, skipping the iterations, the misses, and begin with what's working. Next, they find the core element of your value proposition for which it days or weeks of caffeinated nights and weekends, they can deliver a stripped-down, somewhat weaker 70% of the core essence of just the main killer feature of your product - and blow it out for 50% of what you sell your's for. It could be, they are thinking, that with their one person team, they might soon be bringing it enough that they can free themselves of the soul-sucking 40~50/hour fulltime job that pays the equivalent of $600/month, right?

And you know what? They'll have an inferior product, zero customer support, etc. - but they will be chipping away market share from you, and the loss in revenue could just be why you go under.

So, please don't risk tempting people with a number which - subjectively - could sound high enough for them to consider eating your lunch.

What about too high?
You're doing better and better, you should be recognized for the success that you have achieved, right?

I used $10K MRR as the too high example. If $10K could be high enough to lead someone to copying you, $50K MRR, how could this be too low?

Here's how: you first got the wildest risk-taking early adopters, and then, slightly more conservative customers trickled in. Now you need to win over organizational customers, the kind that can pay for multi-seat (e.g. many users) accounts or a huge tier, or perhaps many individual accounts. The decision makers are not spending their money, so it spends far more easily. However, the purchase decider (or the gate keepers, such as legal or financial personal that can kill the sale) is aware that should your company go belly-up in a matter of weeks, and they paid for lifetime or a whole year, this will cast a black mark on their record in their organization, It's the kind of thing that if they do it too many times, or coupled with other mistakes that cost their employer, it could cost them their job.

So, this person hears that you are doing $50K/month it based on their - subjective - impression of how many developers it must take for you to operate, much based on what they think of as developer salaries (you know, based on where they live?), this potential organizational customer comes to the conclusion that at $50K MRR, you must be teetering on the brink of implosion.

I'd better hold off. I'll circle back next year, see how you're doing then.

The thing is, with a few more of them taking the plunge, it could be that the revenue from them is why you do not go out of business. You need them to not hesitate in making their purchase decision.

The ideas on the spectrum of customer types, from early adopters through the most conservative of buyer types, and on "gate keepers "who can overrule the decision from a department head to make a purchase, are taken from Crossing the Chasm, a book I recommend frequently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

Read the full story at https://medium.com/@osakasaul/the-case-against-sharing-your-startups-mrr-arr-ltv-or-anything-else-that-reveals-how-you-are-1c1177674adb

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    Is there any harm in telling people I make $0 MRR? Maybe my ego!

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      As a fellow founder, I'd respect that honesty. My point, though, is that when you want to earn the business of companies and people working for companies, tell them that you're making little/nothing, and they think you're about to give up - and so, they won't pay.

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        Good point. I can see the shrewdness in that and how it displays a controlled temperament. I'm just beginning to take my projects more seriously, and it's tempting to say too much. I'll keep working on that!

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          Yeah, so part of my point is that our potential customers need to know that we take our projects seriously. Who pays for something who doesn't, right?

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    It is entirely within a private startup's discretion to reveal or not reveal their numbers - and they should make that choice based upon whether or not they think it is beneficial to them. In many cases it's very beneficial, and we can't ignore that. Many startups use their own story as a powerful marketing line, and that includes growth from the first sale all the way to sustainability, and perhaps even eventual exit.

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      Okay, but when people have put just weeks or months into something, I ask them to consider that they may put years into what they're just starting. I suggest that they do not set the stage for being expected to keep sharing numbers because they did, and with regularity, for a time. Like, when MRR was up and to the right.

      What I know is that this may be the case for the time, but I want to encourage people to take care of the future for what they're building, especially since they may make big breakthroughs if they can simply keep at it. Sharing financials is far more likely to bit you in the ass than to help you win over hearts and minds, as I believe I explained in my long post (and the longer Medium post).

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        Saul's post reads mostly like that of would-be entrepreneurs who don't like to share their ideas, because they are worried other people would "steal" their idea. Should you be so lucky. I don't have actual data to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that no startup has ever been killed because they shared their numbers publicly, NONE.

        Here's one more thing I'm willing to bet on. No developer from a developing country has actually ever done what Saul describes successfully. If someone from a developing country can drive you out of business by copying your product and undercutting you on price, you have other problems to think about. HINT: you are fundamentally in a bad business, and that person from a developing country is not your only problem.

        I hope that no one on this forum takes Saul's advice, because Indie Hackers sharing their numbers is one of the things that makes this community what it is. I'm from Lagos, Nigeria, and not once has it ever occurred to me to do what Saul describes. Instead I think, wow! I need to find problems to solve that would pay me that kind of money. To numbers.

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          Actually, theft is extremely common. (I'm glad that it has not happened to you, of course!)

          Poke around in https://dollarflightclub.com/ and you will find that it is a blatant rip-off of https://scottscheapflights.com/ Total theft of the concept, design, architecture - everything.

          See https://www.producthunt.com/posts/intelli-hash/reviews and do see the reviews and comments.

          Over the years, we've seen several attempts to strip us of everything we have.

          With respect, someone attempting to do a quick copy of what you've built over the years, having pivoted and incrementally improved many times, this does not indicate that you've in a bad market - probably the opposite.

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    I've been thinking about this lately. I think certain blog posts about your journey and earnings can help raise awareness about your brand. There's definitely products that I now remember because I remember the founders journey.

    If anything it helps build solidarity with other founders and help them with their own journeys. Knowing others are going through the same ordeal seems more real when you can see the history of the numbers and similarly can motivate others when they see their progress.

    Now whether all that helps your business is another question. I sometimes worry about sharing future earnings for the same reasons but then question if I have a scarcity mindset (and that theres enough for everyone)

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      Worry about just that: your business. Your PEOPLE - the staff and customers who allowed you to continue - is who you owe it to when you do not succumb to the call of those who give zero fucks about your startup when they expect you share numbers that you would be prudent to not share..

      Motherfuck the "scarcity mindshit" crapola. Show your people you appreciate what they've invested. In time, money, too, maybe, you take care of them. Demonstrate that appreciation by sharing all you can - all you can, safely.

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      This comment was deleted 8 months ago.

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    Hey Saul,

    I totally agree with you and I said it here on IH multiple times.

    More than a case against sharing numbers, I would like to see a case for sharing them. I can't see a single benefit from doing it.

    Big companies hate it and, except very few exceptions, they share their numbers only when they are legally required to, after an IPO.

    And most of big companies have moats, something that none of indiehackers has.

    Yes, building in public help people being interest in what you are doing but sharing numbers isn't required to build in public.

    You can say the experiments you are working on, share the wins and losses, the moments of happiness and desperaton without ever mentioning your MRR.

    I never heard in my life (and probably never will) someone who said "I am not going to buy from X because he doesn't share his revenue". In sharing numbers there are only downsides.

    You can say that the probability of failing because someone copies you is low (which is true) but sustaining a low risk without any potential benefit is still dumb.

    In the end, the open movement is a dumb trend that some people follow blindly, other use to please their ego.

    1. 1

      Thanks, Luca!

      I welcome any and all to ask, "how ARE you guys doing? Successes? PROVE them?"

      And I'll share all I can. I just wont throw my startup under the bus. I wont risk putting us in harm's way. My customers and our team - they both deserve that.

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    This comment was deleted 8 months ago.

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      Thanks! I think as a solopreneur, I would agree that people will tend to be even more skeptical of you, and so, unless you can actually give astronomical numbers (that remain that way - and let's face it, businesses have ups and downs), people will tend to devalue what you're building.

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    This comment was deleted a year ago.

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      This is the right answer.

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        This comment was deleted a year ago.

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      With respect, in eight years of continuous development, no one has ever expressed interest in working with us due to financial milestones. They never ask and, of course, as you know from me, we don't offer these. What they look at is what we do with data, machine learning, and this is what garners the attention of engineers and even those who want to get involved in the PR/Marketing side.

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        This comment was deleted a year ago.

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    This comment was deleted 4 years ago.

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